Rule Question: When is it possession?

[Guest]

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[rrudnic]

This happened in a summer league game the other night and it got me wondering about when its considered possession and why.

I was guarding a cutter and he ended his in cut and turned deep right as the handler threw the disc, so I had an uncontested catch D coming right at me. Simultaneously another defensive player bid in front of me missing the disc but causing me to have to jump over him. While jumping over him I attempted to catch the disc and ended up dropping it. The opposing team argued that I had stopped rotation and therefore it was a turn by me. (I am not sure I stopped rotation but that is a different argument) My argument was that even if I had stopped the rotation of the disc it was not possession until I landed and made some sort of continuing move whether it be steps to stop my momentum or establishing a pivot. I haven't had a chance to go through the rules yet but I just wanted to hear what others thoughts were and see what rules they use to defend their position.

The reason I was thinking this way is this. If a player makes a layout D on an in cut for example and catches the disc in the air then drops it on impact it is not a turnover or at least I have never seen it called one. I considered this to be essentially the same thing I was in the air and didnt retain possession before landing.

Also consider if an offensive player lays out for a disc and catches it in the air then hits the ground and loses possession that is considered a turnover. Is he considered to have caught the disc and established possession because he stopped rotation while in the air? or Is it not a catch because he didn't maintain possession while landing?

[wwwake]

Based on your description, I would say that you are correct - it was not a turnover because you had not had control of the disc.  I have always been under the impression control of the disc was the key to "catching" it rather than stopping rotation to be honest but the rules do specifically note no rotation.  After digging around in the rules, this is what I came up with (from the "Definitions" section):

"O. Possession of the disc: Sustained contact with, and control of, a non-spinning disc.
       1. Catching a pass is equivalent to establishing possession of that pass.
       2. Loss of possession due to ground contact related to a catch negates that player's possession up to that point."

I included #2 because it seems relevant to your other inquiry about bidding for a disc and dropping it on impact.  I read that as dropping the disc on impact nullifies any "possesion" of said disc if you are laying out for it, but please correct me if that's inaccurate.

http://www.usaultimate.org/resources/officiating/rules/11th_edition_rules.aspx

[Elysium]

First of all, it would have been quicker to go through the rules than to make this post, don't claim you "didn't have a chance."

Second, the stuff wwwake posted is good, but more relevant is

XII. C.  # A pass is intercepted if a defensive player obtains possession of the disc, but if the defender accidentally loses possession of the disc before or during ground contact related to the catch, the pass is considered blocked rather than intercepted.

So unless you intentionally let go of the disc (assuming you even had possession of it in the first place) it would not be a double turn.

[rrudnic]

First of all, do you know my schedule or what I was doing on that given day to know that I did or didn't have a chance to look at the rules? After summer league I have club practice, then drive an hr and a half home, I spent the next day at work where I don't happen to keep a rule book and can't access the usa ultimate website (blocked for some odd reason) so when I posted that 2 minutes before leaving work I hadn't had a chance to look at the rules.

Second thanks for posting that it was helpful and relevant to the situation. I wonder if/how people would treat it since it wasn't a layout but a jump, it seems to me that the impact of jumping isn't the same and it would be hard to argue that the ground contact is what made you drop the disc.

I gave the disc back as a turn in good spirit, and the disc never lies, they turned it back over a couple throws later leading to a score for us. So it was fine, I was more interested for future reference in case a similar situation came up at a club tournament or something.

[Elysium]

It doesn't matter what made you drop the disc, as long as you didn't drop it on purpose.

[AndyHarry]

Landing on your feet after a jump fits the definition of 'ground contact relating to the catch.' As the rules say, if possession is lost during ground contact relating to the catch, the possession up until that point is negated, thus, as a defender, you never had possession of that disc so long as you lost it during ground contact relating to the catch, which circles back to the other rule, stating that an intercepted pass that is dropped during ground contact relating to the catch is considered blocked rather than intercepted.