Rule discussion

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[kch88]

Alright. This came up in a league game last night (sort of). I was running down field following my mark, and as I ran by the handler I knocked the disc out of his hand with my shoulder. It was a strip, but I thought he had released the disc. I did non contest on advice from the defender on the disc. The question didn't come up in the actual game but in a discussion I had on the sideline about the rule in question. Had it not been a strip, but left his hand, would it have been a clean block? We all decided that if it hit me in the shoulder as I ran by (within 3 m) that it would have been incidental contact and a turn-over. The question came in when I asked whether I could have blocked it with my hand as I ran by (following my mark, who was also within 3 m). I always believed that as long as my mark was within 3 m, I was also allowed to be within 3 m and could double team the handler if I wanted to leave my man (provided he stays within 3 m). A teammate said that I had to be guarding my man directly and "reacting to his movements" even if we were both within 3 m. I have read the rules multiple timess (I will read them again after posting this) but it seems to me as if it is open to interpretation. Is there a general consensus on the language in the rule?

Thanks,
Kai

edit: Double-team: If a defensive player other than the marker is within three meters of any pivot of the thrower without also being within three meters of and guarding (II.G) another offensive player, it is a double team. However, merely running across this area is not a double team.

[ksharp]

This topic looks about three years old but I am going to take a stab at it.

To answer your questions:

1) if you knock the disc out of the handler's hands, intentionally or otherwise, it is a strip.

2) if the disc has already been intentionally released by the handler, then no double-team can exist.  Since there is no player in possession of the disc, the three meter buffer does not apply.

3) when guarding your player (within 3m) while simultaneously passing within 3m of a handler who is being marked...you must be guarding your own player, "reacting to his movements" and not those of the handler.

[Stafman]

On your third point, I think UPA may be different to WFDF as it doesn't refer to marking your own player. It just says if there is another O player within 3m of the defender. Hence multiple defenders can crash a disc on Zone D if there is just one popper within 3m of all of them.

Also, a double team is a marking infraction and can't be called after a throw. If you attempt to throw even whilst an Double team exists, then that is your decision. If it hits the second illegal defender, too bad. Double team is not a foul.

[Ka-ching]

Ok, I have a question then, if I notice a double team on me, do I call out a foul? Or what do I do?

[ksharp]

If you play under UPA rules, refer to XIV.A.5, XIV.B.2, and XIV.B.7-8.

A double-team is not a foul, but rather a marking violation.  So, call "double-team."

For the first marking violation, play does not stop, but the double-team must be corrected before resuming the stall count (at the count reached minus one).  Also see XIV.A.5.b.2.

If the stall count is resumed before the double-team has been corrected, it counts as a second marking violation.  And if there is a second marking violation during the same stall count, there are two ways it can be handled:

1) a second marking violation can be called (call "double-team"), and again, play does not stop, but the double-team must be corrected before resuming the stall count (at the count reached minus one).  Again, see XIV.A.5.b.2.

2) a general violation may be called and the thrower must call "violation."  Play is stopped.  If the violation is uncontested, stall count resumes (at one) with a check (see XIV.A.5.a.1).  If the violation is contested (incidentally I haven't ever seen a second double team contested so I had to look this up to be sure!), stall count resumes (at count reached plus one) with a check (see XIV.A.5.a.3).

Anyone want to check my research...?

[samusx84]

If a defender runs into another defender while they are both chasing recievers is that a pick? I understood that it had to be an offensive player that caused a pick.

Also can a receiver slow down as a disc approaches so that the defender chasing him runs into him, and then dive at the last second to catch the disc? This is almost like boxing out. It sounds like it could be legal, and also may not be in the UPA rules.

[Seppo]

Hey samusx84,

Welcome to UT! 

The following is the definition of a pick according to the UPA 11th edition rules:

Picks:

• A pick occurs whenever an offensive player moves in a manner that causes a defensive player guarding (II.G) an offensive player to be obstructed by another player. Obstruction may result from contact with, or the need to avoid, the obstructing player.
• A pick can be called only by the obstructed player and must be announced by loudly calling pick immediately after it occurs.
• If play stops according to XVI.C, players reposition according to XVI.C.4. In addition, the obstructed player is then allowed to move to recover the relative position lost because of the pick.

So a defender running into another defender is not a pick.

As for a receiver slowing down, you can definitely "box out" and jockey for position, but I believe the defender could announce a violation if the offensive player intentionally slow downed to cause contact (and possibly a foul) but was not intending to go for the disc.  This would be akin to an offensive player intentionally smashing into (i.e. tackling) a defender who was going for the disc.

FOUL! 

- Seppo #22

[Stafman]

Yo Seppo,

I think you misread the rule... A defender running into another defender is definitely a pick if the defender was chasing an offensive player at the time and chasing the offensive player results in the contact or need to avoid contact...

Hey samusx84,

Welcome to UT! 

The following is the definition of a pick according to the UPA 11th edition rules:

Picks:

• A pick occurs whenever an offensive player moves in a manner that causes a defensive player guarding (II.G) an offensive player to be obstructed by another player. Obstruction may result from contact with, or the need to avoid, the obstructing player.
• A pick can be called only by the obstructed player and must be announced by loudly calling pick immediately after it occurs.
• If play stops according to XVI.C, players reposition according to XVI.C.4. In addition, the obstructed player is then allowed to move to recover the relative position lost because of the pick.

So a defender running into another defender is not a pick.

As for a receiver slowing down, you can definitely "box out" and jockey for position, but I believe the defender could announce a violation if the offensive player intentionally slow downed to cause contact (and possibly a foul) but was not intending to go for the disc.  This would be akin to an offensive player intentionally smashing into (i.e. tackling) a defender who was going for the disc.

FOUL! 

- Seppo #22

[samusx84]

Thanks for your input. It just seemed odd to me that a defensive player could call a pick on another defensive player.

[Ka-ching]

A defender running into another defender is definitely a pick if the defender was chasing an offensive player at the time and chasing the offensive player results in the contact or need to avoid contact...

Ok, this the way it is? For sure?

Because that's happened to me a few times before, and I didn't know enough to call anything... so is it a foul for sure if that happens?

[samusx84]

It isn't really a foul, just call "pick".

[ksharp]

Pick situations can fall into two categories: (1) situations when an offensive player sets a pick, and (2) situations when an offensive player uses another player as a pick.  The 'pick' rule is written in broad language, which is probably intentionally so that it covers both scenarios.

The first type of situation is easy to spot.  An offensive player is being guarded by a defensive player.  A second offensive player moves to obstruct the defensive player by taking a position between them:



The second type of situation is not as obvious.  An offensive player is being guarded by a defensive player.  That offensive player moves in such a way that a third player obstructs the defender.  The third player can be an offensive player:



...or a defensive player:



It can be a little trickier to spot especially when all players are running around!  It also may seem a bit weird calling a pick, when the obstructing player is a member of your own team!  But if that obstruction is a result of the offensive player's movement, make the call.  Take care not to call a pick when the defensive player's movement causes/contributes to the obstruction.