How many officials should be used for one game?

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[bigley]

I think we all can agree that some sort of official should be used, especially at the elite level.  I think a more reasonable conversation and more applicable question is: HOW MANY OFFICIALS SHOULD BE USED?  As of now the standard amount is two observers (taken from my experience playing in this years college nationals).  Though the players voted to have active up/down calls and a few other rules put in to effect, the observers and the innovative rules were rendered less effective than expected.  Because, a majority of the time, again from my experiences playing and from talking with one of the observers afterwards, neither observer was in a position to make a call or to overrule/confirm a call that was made. 

After thinking about it I think atleast five officials are needed.  2 linesmen, 1 watching the mark/ counting the stall, and 2 downfield.

Right now I have several scenarios buzzing through my head as how to solve the whole Hucking dilemma - Like when a huck goes up does a lines judge become the new official watching the mark? 

I'll leave it to you to suggest improvements to my initial thoughts.

Keep in mind:
Football(NFL, College)   7  officials
Baseball   4
Soccer     3
Basketball  3  Not including scorekeepers and shot clock keepers.

[rrudnic]

There are already dozens of shots in videos of observers being in the way on plays, I see no reason to increase the frequency of that. I would say 2 or maybe 3 at most. I think the problem is 1/2 the observers are fat and lazy and don't follow the play.

[evanhp]

My personal opinion(not every playing with observers).
I think 2 is fine. For one, it will be extremely hard finding that many quality observers to want to watch a game. When you think of all the tourneys and all the games, we are talking a lot of observers, there arent even that many well educated players in the sport, let alone people who are only going to want to observe a game.
I think observers should be primarily used for up/down and in/out calls on lines.
I think players can continue to make the other calls and sort through them. If we leave too much up to the observers than Spirit of the Game is lost and then we have lost the sport.

I agree though that observers in the Elite divisions would help solve major disputes. But Im thinking only in the UPA series. Regionals on.

Those are my thoughts.

[bigley]

So what I am hearing is that two observers is all that is needed.  Thanks for the input. Let me return to the original dilemma...  If observers are there to make up/down and rule when asked on other calls but are unable to see the throw or the play, what should happen next?

[rrudnic]

What should happen... I don't know, what would happen... the same thing that happens now they argue for three minutes and its contested and goes back or is a turn and play resumes after the short and somewhat annoying at times delay. But I'm totally ok with that since its the way the game is meant to be played and the spirit is still there. I don't want a bunch of refs with a different name dictating a game that only leads to problems like being biased.

[Tenk283]

I think this is following on from the other thread and the discussion whether we should have referees or observers.

The difference between the two is a referee (/umpire/judge) actively controls the game and indirectly dictates how the rules are adhered too. Unbending referees make players follow the absolute letter of the rules and allow zero contact or deviation. More lenient referees allow more contact and deviation from the rules.

An observer watches the game and makes calls that do not influence how the rules are adhered to. Up/down calls are not something I would put to the observers. In or out, what the rules say and that kind of thing. But never actually stepping in without being asked.

Just a note about soccer, at the highest level there are 4 officials for soccer. 1 referee who controls the middle, 2 assistants that control offside and ball in/out of play along their sideline and 1 4th official who takes care of interchange and the bench.

In ultimate observers could not be on the field but would have to offer rules for onfield incidents. As such, i would say you would need 4 observers to fully cover a game. 2 on each sideline covering half the field each.

That way, they could each cover a quarter of the field and be able to call players in or out for the sidelines AND the goal lines. 2 observers could not cover enough ground to be able to rule on every thing they would be needed to. Take it from someone who was a soccer official for a couple of years. There were several things drilled into us, the first was our position and the view we had of the play. The second was our proximity and how close we were. Obviously, if you are 50m away and there are players standing in the way, you are in no position to make a call. With four observers the furthest the play can theoretically get from an official is only 30 odd metres, which is still relatively close. Not to mention an observer with a broken leg could keep the play closer than that.

The organization of the observers would be really easy. The observers (one on each sideline) that are looking after the attacking half of the field (the endzone where the disc may get hucked too) stand further upfield and watch the stack. The observers (the other two, one on each sideline) looking after the defending half stand in line with the disc and watch the throw/mark. If a huck goes up, the attacking observers will have to run to the endzone to watch where the player lands.

As rudnic indirectly touched on, our sport is free from two things: professional fouls and biased referees. I love ultimate because of the first. I left soccer because of the first. I have a pet hate of the second, along with pretty much the rest of the world. We should do everything in our power to keep our sport that way. As such, observers should be given the authority to rule only on in/out and to give the players the applicable rule or an opinion when asked. That will remove the ability for them to influence the game in a major way and it will also remove the temptation of players to foul others to slow or stop the play.

[SirWatsonII]

I disagree.  Two is too few and four is too many.  Three officials is ideal.  Let the numbers aside.  Basketball has 2 officials at high school and unofficial games and then 3 officials as the tournaments become more important (and have a higher payroll).  I think it essential that observers be introduced at all levels because i see them as the perfect balance of spirit and fairness.  And after all, fairness is in the spirit, thus observers seem like a true ultimate creation.

3 officials is plenty to not get in the way and to make calls as they are able.  Now, crashing into players is just inexperienced refs.  But that's just because observing is a slack job anyway until it is an official tradition.  Trust me, if you give legitimacy to observers then your observers will start being legitimate.  3 at professional, 2 at unprofessional. 

[Tenk283]

Observers would never be on the field while the disc is in play....

Being someone who has refereed a sport, I assure you that 2 observers would either do an improper job or be totally rooted by full time. Think about what they have to cover mate. This isn't a 30m stretch of sidewalk. Its 100m long and 37m wide. There is no way 2 people can cover that effectively. If you want 2 observers, you may want to try and do a game with only two observers and both of you are to keep the disc within 37m at all times whilst still being able to judge in and out calls for the sideline + the endzone. You won't do it. Not effectively. Because remember, its all well and good to go tear-assing around the field, but you still need to have enough blood in your brain to make the appropriate call.

Besides, having someone on the field, they are just going to get in the way. Ultimate is such a dynamic sport, it is alot like basketball in that regard. Passing often encompasses a large amount of the field, so much so that the officials would have to be standing on the sidelines in any event to prevent being in the way. Experience isn't a factor.

[SirWatsonII]

sounds fair mate, seeing as youve officialed before.  Then what is the perfect number?  I can see in a professional league having line judges but other than that, how many officials can cover the field?  3? 4?

[linus89]

a lot of people keep saying that the observers should be used to judge up and down calls.... but seriously..how many up/down calls are there in one game of ultimate? 1, maybe 2 tops. (and besides if the teams are any good at this game there shouldn't be any to begin with ).

but back on to the topic at hand...as it was mentioned in another post there are already 14 observers on the field ready to make a call on a play so observers would only need a knowledge of the rules and how to apply them and only use that knowledge when asked by players on the field.

Having not played a game with observers im probably not the best judge of what would happen but i think if there too many people influencing a game it will ruin the pace of play and also remove the integrity of the sport.
but i reckon what evan was saying is right, observers really shouldn't be used for games any less than regionals (if at all)...

[simmo]

Same as soccer - 1 on-field, 2 linesmen. Linesmen rule on in/outs and maybe up/downs. The main ref can ask the linesmen for their opinion/view on any other call before making the final ruling. If a soccer ref can police a field that's double the size of an ultimate field and with 50% more players, there's no reason an ultimate official (with linesmen) couldn't.

[SirWatsonII]

Then again, soccer officiating seems very flawed.  A lot of flopping.  But i think its very true.  A linesman's job is very simple and doesn't need to be an official.  That means 1-2 officials actually watching the field.  I agree, sounds very possible.