Community in Ultimate (Please assist)

[Guest]

Advertise on UT!

[Checkity]

Hey all,

I'm currently doing a university undergraduate dissertation (from a UK university) and am considering the idea of how sport can create a sense of community with specific reference to ultimate. Research has been done about how sport can create identities (fan-support etc) as well as how sport can be beneficial for local communities (see http://www.ultimatepeace.org for example) but very little has been done about how players react and interact with other players. It's my strong opinion that ultimate is a great example of how sport can create a community between it's players, a concept that seems to have been overlooked.

I have only played ultimate for less than a year after starting at university (unfortunately it's still relatively small in the UK) but instantly fell in love after my first tournament and this passion is shown in the fact that I am now my university's club captain. This lack of experience however means I would greatly appreciate any feedback or direction that can be given; alternatively if you could answer some of these questions that would be great!

1) What sets ultimate apart from other sports?

2) How would you define community?

3) Do you think notions of community and inclusion are performed between teams and players at tournaments?

3.1) Where is this performed (ie. on pitch, off-pitch, post-game debrief, tournament socials, non-official games - such as mac line competitions)?

3.2)What is the significance of this in terms of promoting a sense of belonging/equality/community between teams and players?

4) How often do you recognise people at tournaments from previous ones and [how] does this affect your opinion of ultimate?



Like I said, this is still early. Any help though would be much appreciated!

[kryptonick]

Hey Checkity,

I too am Captain of a UK Univerisity team (or I will be when I speak to our sports union in August). I ran training sessions twice a week and went to a few competitions last year, hopefully this year we'll be able to be a bit more serious as I hope to be affiliated with the sports union.

1) What sets ultimate apart from other sports?

Uh, the sense of community? The self regulation and SOTG really forges friendships across teams. I still keep in touch with an American player that was across in Edinburgh for an exchange year at Uni back in 2006. Different teams, different backgrounds, different gender, friendship forged through Ultimate. I have friends I have made in the last year from across Scotland all thanks to Ultimate. I also play basketball competitively and it doesn't compare. I'd imagine football (soccer) and rugby, the other 2 big sports in the UK would be the same. If you saw a game of football, rugby or basketball in motion would you be comfortable asking to join in? What if it was Ultimate? That's a major difference for me.


2) How would you define community?

I'm not sure I could, I study Sports and Exercise Science for a reason Probably as a "close knit group of individuals with common interests, goals or beliefs" although I'm sure someone will rip that appart.

3) Do you think notions of community and inclusion are performed between teams and players at tournaments?

To a certain extent, but there is a time and place. It's more evident at Hat or pick up events.

3.1) Where is this performed (ie. on pitch, off-pitch, post-game debrief, tournament socials, non-official games - such as mac line competitions)?

During the game SOTG and self officiating (these are not synonomous) instill the community spirit. (Good natured) Heckling from the sidelines help too. Inclusion is mostly outside of the game at tournaments, Spirit games and parties come to mind.

3.2)What is the significance of this in terms of promoting a sense of belonging/equality/community between teams and players?

Spirit games are a great way to wind down after a game they allow 2 teams previously seperated to bond as one. I guess thats both the belonging and community taken care of. Parties do the same, allowing barriers to be broken down and friendships (some times more) to be made. I'm not sure that ultimate creates any sense of "equality" any more or less than breathing does. People are people. Some people (ultimate players) are "better" than others (non-ultimate players).  All ultimate players are equal, but some are more equal than others....

4) How often do you recognise people at tournaments from previous ones and [how] does this affect your opinion of ultimate?

Very often. Scotland is fairly small afterall, so when I go to Edinburgh Beginners I play against the same people (roughly) that were at tune up. When I go to regionals it's the same guys as last year, minus the graduates, plus a few from the beginners tournies.

The exception is the Wednesday pickup i've started playing, I don't recognise these guys because they aren't on the uni circuit any more, they are club players or uni graduates. There are a few uni players there too, and again I may not know everyones name but we recognise each other.

It makes Ultimate feel almost family like, in that even if you don't know great uncle frank, twice removed on your step dads side, you do have an underlying common ground and its enough to get along with.


The wednesday pickup group I spoke of ran a summer league for people in town through june/july. It was open to any skill level and I think 1 beginner (was his first ever time playing the game) I was speaking to summed it pretty well. "of course, everyone here is different, but everyone has the same attitude, it's like 40 other Jeffs running around"

[Checkity]

Hey Kryptonick

Could I possibly ask what team you're gonna be captain of? I'm Going to be Exeter (Uriel). Sounds like your from Edinburgh area (Ro Sham?).

You said that hat tournamens would be an ideal format to express this notion of community; luckily I'm going to one this weekend (DUFFA hat, Birmingham) so i can try and get some people's opinions when I'm there; I havent been to a hat tournament before so it should be handy, but do you have any suggestions on any other areas of the game that i could explore that may help my research?

You later say, "The exception is the Wednesday pickup i've started playing, I don't recognise these guys because they aren't on the uni circuit any more, they are club players or uni graduates. There are a few uni players there too, and again I may not know everyones name but we recognise each other."  <-- would you say that there is a different "atmosphere" when playing with these people? Does the fact that you ony "recognise" them and not "know" them create any barriers? (I understand there will be personal barriers but are there any related specifically to ultimate?)


"If you saw a game of football, rugby or basketball in motion would you be comfortable asking to join in? What if it was Ultimate? That's a major difference for me." <-- Why would you think this? eg. do you think this just because ultimate is a much smaller sport than say football or rugby and that way you feel you have more in common with another ultimate player than say a football player will with another; or is there some other reason?


One last question, If i continue this, could i possibl ask you a few questions at a later date and use your responses within my dissertation; anonymity will ofcourse be upheld!


Thanks for your reply and sorry for bad typing in this reply. On a friends tiny laptop and was rushed to get off!

[kryptonick]

First off, sorry this is so brief, i'm using my cell phone since i'm not at home for a few days. I'm not at edin uni though i know a few people that have played and do play for ro sham. I'm actually at heriot watt uni, i semi started team there last year, we'll be alot more organised this year coming:) i'll answer your other questions in more detail tomorrow or the next day, but i'll be happy to help any way i can, so yes you can ask and quote! 

[kryptonick]

Hi, I got home a few hours ago and remembered this post.

I was Zap Catting today (google "Zap Cat" or look up "Bad day at the Zap Cat office" on youtube if you are interested) and one of the guys there was the president of Strathclyde uni ultimate team last year.

The reason I say Hat tournaments help instil that sense of community or inclusion is simply that you are "thrown in at the deep end" so to speak. If you are lucky you will know nobody on your team and will have to make friends asap if you are to succeed. I personally measure the success of a hat tournament by how many names and numbers I come home with (although that sounds a bit dirtier than I mean it to). You'll have a ball over the weekend, is it a 2 day tourny? Most hats i've been to have been 1 day affairs.

The atmosphere at the pickup games is slightly different to the uni stuff, but I don't think that it has much to do with anything other than the age gap. I'm a bit older than most uni students (25 soon :S) and most of the guys on a wednesday are 20+. Most of the guys at the uni games are 18-21. I dont think the atmosphere is any better or worse, its just different and I'm not sure i explain how. Only recognising the guys and not "knowing" them only really comes from not having played with them as much. I think it creates certain social barriers as at tournaments you could start a conversation fairly easier with a player you know from another team, where as speaking to a player you dont know limits the options for starting that conversation. Invariably they start with "how long have you been playing?" type question.

I think everyone stereotypes to a certain degree and that that is what stops me from asking people playing football (soccer to clarifiy for any americans or aussies reading this thread) or rugby if they have room for an extra player. Also I haven't met an ultimate player I couldn't get along with. I have friends that play Rugby to a very high standard (class mate is on Scotland under 21 squad), and alot of my friends are football (again soccer) fans and recreational players. Maybe it is the lower popularity of the sport. I joined in a game of flag football (not soccer) last wednesday as I arrived for frisbee more than an hour early, the guys I played with were cool. I just asked if I could join in uninvited.

Hopefully that elaborated a bit. If you need more help let me know.

PS. I missed the pickup games today

[Checkity]

It's a two day tournament, camping and a bbq and social on the night. Think i am heading there friday so its 2 days of camping, really looking forward to it, hopefully i can get some sort of idea of what questions to ask people there, although I'm worried i may end up trying to work on my dissertation more than have a good time socialising; I know one other person going to this tournament so it's definately a case of being on a team of complete strangers which will be an experience!

Sucks that you missed your pick up games but u should feel lucky.. theres nothing like that all all where I live, very few people play it and the majority of the teams on ukultimate have disbanded so im left with throwabouts with friends (only 1 of which actually plays ultimate. the others are rugby guys so it's not the same )

Thanks for helping out krypto, hopefully I'll get some more replies and some info this weekend. one last thing though, do you have any suggestions, in your experience, as to how i could pursue this research or have you (or anyone reading this) come across any sites or articles that may be of interest?

[Apriori]

1) What sets ultimate apart from other sports?
What sets ultimate apart from other sports (and here I'm talking about organized ultimate, an important distinction) is the fact that its players have so much in common with each other, in part because of the niche status of the sport. I hate to play to the 'community' aspect of your paper, but I think that's the best way to describe it--if I were visiting a foreign country for a long length of time, I would definitely try and get in touch with ultimate players there...can you imagine that happening with a different sport like basketball or soccer (er, football)? If I know that somebody is an ultimate player, it tells me a fair amount about that person...I think a lot of ultimate players would be comfortable letting an ultimate player they didn't know crash at their house for a night or two because that's the way they are.

2) How would you define community?
I'd say that community is a sense of common spirit, purpose, experience, and/or camaraderie in a group.

3) Do you think notions of community and inclusion are performed between teams and players at tournaments?
Yes, and more so than other sports because of all of the team and regional traditions involved in ultimate, among other things. Going back to what I said about how if I know that somebody is an ultimate player it tells me a fair amount about them, it's possible to go to a tournament where you don't know anybody and still be included and make good friends.

3.1) Where is this performed (ie. on pitch, off-pitch, post-game debrief, tournament socials, non-official games - such as mac line competitions)?
All of the above. In the cheers, the game itself, the traditions, as well as less-tangible things such as common ultimate terminology and so on.

3.2)What is the significance of this in terms of promoting a sense of belonging/equality/community between teams and players?
It's important because it's what makes ultimate different from other sports. If there were no traditions or anything like that, the communal spirit among ultimate players would be reduced immensely.

4) How often do you recognise people at tournaments from previous ones and [how] does this affect your opinion of ultimate?
The state of the US that I play in, and even the entire region, does not have as big of an ultimate presence as some other states (NY, Wisconsin, Washington, etc.) and regions, so I definitely know and recognize lots of people in the community. Let me put it this way: if there were a college tournament in my region and I went there, I would be surprised if I had never seen any of the teams and didn't know anybody there. I like this because it's not ever so small as to feel too small, which is to say that there are always plenty of people that I don't know, but at the same time I'm able to know many people in the community and also have mutual friends with the people that I meet.

I wrote a research paper on a topic very similar to this a few months ago and I'd be happy to forward you the information I found (I surveyed about 20 players from around the country) if you're interested.

[Checkity]

Thanks Apriori for your comments. Id appreciate it greatly if you could forward me your research. I have sent you a PM on here with my email address on can i just comment on a few things you said though?

1. "and here I'm talking about organized ultimate, an important distinction"  <-- In your eyes, what is this distinction? Also... by "organized" do you mean "tourney ultimate Vs pick-up on the weekend (for example)" or "regional qualifiers Vs 'fun' hat tournament"?

2. "I hate to play to the 'community' aspect of your paper" <-- Good point, i was worried i may be leading people at the start of this... I'll look out for it when i ask other sources, cheers

3.  " it tells me a fair amount about that person" <-- What kind of things would it tell you about a person?

4. "common ultimate terminology" <-- Thats an interesting comment! Why do you feel as though this helps instill a sense of belonging? Would you deem this to be as significant as other areas?  (I really do like that idea by the way, hadnt thought of it!)


I ask these questions not because i don't agress with what your saying, just so i can get a greater insight into how other people feel. Some of the questions may seem a little pointless but i dunno, you may have slightly different ideas than me so it's helpful to ask them anyway. Once again Thanks for your comments!

[chargeorge]

1. I think Ultimate is a bit unique in the fact that no one knows much about it outside the dedicated people who play it.  This small community is pretty tightly knit and it's easy to spot each other.  There are visual cues that people are ultimate players, and we aren't shy about hiding them.  From the team shirts worn out of context, to the carrying around of distinctive Ultra Stars.  I also think it's different because the only people who care about it are the ones playing it.  In america especially there's a distinction between watching sports, which is seen as socially acceptable and playing them, which is seen as a childish activity.  For ultimate players that's reversed.

2.  Community is a group of people with shared passions and goals, and some shared cultural ideals, rites and rituals.

3. I've never played at a nationals level, but there's absolutely community that is shared on and off the pitch between teams.  Between cheers, finding your local team friends to hang out, hanging out at the party.  On the field it's about saying hi to the guy you are marking, a bit of friendly heckling, just playing as hard as you can.  I think it's all huge for the sense of community.  The culture of this game (again, I'm speaking from a regionals college/club level experience here) is about playing as hard as you can on the field then grabbing a beer after the game.

4.  I'm not playing in so many tourneys now (mostly league play looking to move to club next year), but in college I appreciated it.  I used to play Halo with guys from Alfred, and at tourneys I'd give high fives to guys like that.  There were also the local teams, Suny Albany, Skidmore, and RPI who I would seek out to say hi to. 

[s0urce]

You should definitely source some of the books on Ultimate history that have been written.

There are definite links between the late 60's academia culture and SOTG.  The sport wasn't founded by the jocks, but by the brainiacs and arts students.  It was born out of a different mentality than other sports. 

Hamsphire college (a humanist education school) was one of the first few collegiate teams to play and propel the sport in college.

[Apriori]

Thanks Apriori for your comments. Id appreciate it greatly if you could forward me your research. I have sent you a PM on here with my email address on can i just comment on a few things you said though?

1. "and here I'm talking about organized ultimate, an important distinction"  <-- In your eyes, what is this distinction? Also... by "organized" do you mean "tourney ultimate Vs pick-up on the weekend (for example)" or "regional qualifiers Vs 'fun' hat tournament"?
The distinction between organized ultimate and unorganized ultimate is that in organized ultimate you have team strategies and organization (organization in organized ultimate? surprising, I know), whereas my stereotype for unorganized ultimate is barefoot teenagers who don't know how to throw a flick running around.

2. "I hate to play to the 'community' aspect of your paper" <-- Good point, i was worried i may be leading people at the start of this... I'll look out for it when i ask other sources, cheers

3.  " it tells me a fair amount about that person" <-- What kind of things would it tell you about a person?
At least in the US, ultimate players are generally nice, welcoming, enjoy having a good time, and are typically more liberal in their political views. There's a great book on ultimate with a lot of insight into this, it's called Ultimate: The Greatest Sport Ever Invented By Man. I'd recommend it.

4. "common ultimate terminology" <-- Thats an interesting comment! Why do you feel as though this helps instill a sense of belonging? Would you deem this to be as significant as other areas?  (I really do like that idea by the way, hadnt thought of it!)
I think that terminology helps instill a sense of community, you have more in common with each other and it helps differentiate yourself from people from outside of your group. My paper actually sort of went into this.

I ask these questions not because i don't agress with what your saying, just so i can get a greater insight into how other people feel. Some of the questions may seem a little pointless but i dunno, you may have slightly different ideas than me so it's helpful to ask them anyway. Once again Thanks for your comments!

Hey dude, I didn't get your PM for whatever reason. Weird. Shoot me an email on gmail, my account that I don't really use there anymore is daatog. And sorry I didn't write more here, but my laptop battery is almost gone.