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Regional => Australasia => Topic started by: simmo on August 19, 2009, 12:32:42 AM



Title: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: simmo on August 19, 2009, 12:32:42 AM
Thought this needs it's own thread.

So registrations close at 5pm on Friday. On Monday, I will know how many teams are coming and will be embarking on the really really fun process of seeding teams and creating a draw. As far I as know, there are 20 teams, with the distinct possibility of more that I don't know about.

The key issues right now are...

One division or two?
AUS really want two divisions. The general public want one. I'm 50/50.

The reality is that if we have more than 20 teams, two divisions is going to happen. The capacity of ultimate has always been 20 teams - that hasn't changed in ever. In an ideal world everyone would pick their division and all would be hunky dory but if we find ourselves in a situation where 19 teams want to be in Div1 and 2 want to be in Div2 then obviously some smackdown will need to be applied. That being said, less than 20 teams will probably = one division.

I'm suggesting that teams who consider themselves serious medal contenders go for Div1, with everyone else going for Div2.



Seeding
Similar to last year, I don't want to mess about with seedings too much. Any swaps will be done inter-regionally, and we'll have to find somewhere to slot UQ in. Based purely on last year's AUG results, here's where the regional seedings are...

East
1. Sydney
2. Mac
3. Newcastle
4. UTS
5. ANU
6. Wollongong
7. UNSW (did not compete in 08)
8. UWS (did not compete in 08)

North
1. Griffith
2. QUT
3. UQ (did not compete in 08)

West
1. UWA

South
1. Flinders
2. Adelaide
3. Melbourne
4. Monash
5. Deakin
6. Ballarat

Other
1. NZ (did not compete in 08)

Based with these regions alone (let's not compare across regions yet), are there any suggestions for changes. Couple of things to bear in mind...
- I think UQ as North #1 is a given.
- Should we consider EUG and SUG results instead of 08 AUG results? Personal opinion: I think we should.
- Adelaide this year are a composite team (with UniSA) so they may not be able to compete in Div1 (not 100% sure on this).


Draw format
It will be a reclassification format (ie: same as last year), with maybe 1 or 2 less games than last year. Any major objections or suggestions to this?


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: Chris L on August 19, 2009, 01:49:44 AM
If there ends up being 2 divisions (which I think is a good idea), will division one be based only on team strength or capped at 16 teams to allow for a nice draw format - UPA draw maybe?

Determining seeding for the eastern region will be difficult. Macquarie didn't play EUG so nobody knows what their team is like this year and Sydney will argue that their AUG team is stronger than the team they had in Bathurst. However, if it goes off last year then Newcastle will feel slightly hard done by after convincingly winning EUG. No matter how you do it someone will disagree, so I don't envy your job on this one.


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: biskit on August 19, 2009, 02:37:50 AM
Being relegated to div 2 has been a big concern for ANU this year due to poor results last year. Last year was 'just one of those years', where a core group of players all graduated and the Aug's squad was relatively weak (but at least they went). We don't have a problem with 2 divisions as such (if fact we are in favour of it), just that we would be heavily opposed to an 'enforced' relegation to div 2 as this years AUGs team is significantly stronger.

If it ends up going to an enforced division of *say* 16 teams in div 1 plus the remainder in div 2 based on last years results, then that must apply to everybody. Teams who had a weak year but who still attended should get priority over teams who didn't play. For the look of the seedings list, this would put 14 teams through to div 1 (if they wanted/could play), the next couple of positions should be open to the top regional qualifiers and merged teams should be considered as 'new' competitors. This way all the 'good' teams still end up in the top division.

Seedings is another matter entirely, which we are less concerned about. Our seeding won't be great by whatever method is used, so it is a little less of a concern just as long as we make it into div 1. What is the UPA draw like? Id certainly prefer a draw that doesn't favour seedings (ie not the nationals draw, it was great for us this year but probably isn't the best for uni games).
Andrew


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: thebozzman on August 19, 2009, 03:14:27 AM
I think a cominbination of AUG08, EUG/SUG 09 results and commonsense would be the best way to do the seeding for the event.

If we have 20ish teams at AUG's, I think capping Div 1 at 12 teams and the rest in Div 2 would be ideal. That would mean both divisions would be contested hotly.

To do this, have a look at last years standings and also have a look at regional qualifying (and maybe think of it like national seedings where each state gets particular spots and the teams are put into them based on strength)

Hope that makes some form of sense...


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: DaveR on August 19, 2009, 05:15:48 AM
ha, Chris you jumped the gun on the point i would have made...that we would feel hard done by being relegated out of top spot in East based on fact that only half our AUG squad played EUG, and with our team being not to dissimilar to a medal winning team from last year. My personal opinion would be that East should be seeded:-

Sydney (2nd last year, 2nd EUG, much stronger AUG squad)
Newcastle (Won EUG, Top 8 last year)
Mac (due to not playing EUG and but a realistic knwoledge of a decent squad, they shoudlnt get shafted but should be below Newcastle despite last year)
UTS
ANU
CSU (Assuming CSU come, where you put these three would be difficult, as ANU has stronger AUG squad, CSU got bronze but no play last year and UTS has a similar team to EUG...this would be my opinion, not nesessarily based on where they will finish)
UNSW
Wollongong (no Wollongong at EUG...not many frisbee players in Wollongong at the moment judging on last year)
UWS

As for divisions...i dunno, you would hate to have an inflexible policy which would see a team like UQ which didnt compete get div 2 based entirely on last year(not saying thats being suggested). Any compulsory forcing aint cool. Also for the teams that realisitcally wont medal but will benefit alot from playing div 1 would be unfortunate to force them out based on your suggested only "serious medal contendors" idea. And what happens if you get only 6 teams or so in div 2...then it becomes a ratehr pointless exercise....although they may have a better time at the party.


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: Twig on August 19, 2009, 06:43:14 PM
I wont really comment on seedings as we are the only team from our region so I guess we win that by default.

My personal opinion for draws based on 20 teams is that i really disliked the 2 pools of 10 we had two years ago, especially when seeding is going to be tough to get right.  playing initial pool games until mid-late wednesday (i found at least) became really boring as you really had no idea where you were situated in the comp unless you were dominating/be dominated.  4 pools of 5 or 5 pools of 4 (top two go into 2 power pools of 5 teams)  would be much better in my opinion

I also think that a little less workload is a good thing as well.  the 4 game day last year was absolutely a killer and would definitely prefer not to have it happen this year.

If it were to go to Divisions i would definitely support a smaller div 1 (12 -14 teams) that may have a few less games but of much higher quality ultimate. 


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: simmo on August 19, 2009, 08:14:59 PM
And what happens if you get only 6 teams or so in div 2...then it becomes a ratehr pointless exercise....although they may have a better time at the party.
Completely agree with this. Wouldn't want to have a Div2 unless there's at least 7 or 8 teams.

Also for the teams that realisitcally wont medal but will benefit alot from playing div 1 would be unfortunate to force them out based on your suggested only "serious medal contendors" idea.
This, however, I don't agree with. AUS want to see AUG return to being a "best of the best" comp across all sports, so I feel the regional events should be seen as the 'development' tournaments, with AUG being on par with Nats and Mixed Nats.

Along the lines of Twig's last point, I think there's more benefit in a week of games against a similar standard of opponent, rather than 2.5 days of 15-2 wins/losses followed by a couple of close ones.


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: Chris L on August 19, 2009, 08:42:10 PM
So if it was decided to only have "serious contenders" in div 1, who would they be?

East: Sydney, Newcastle, Macquarie, ANU(?), UTS(?), CSU(?)
North: UQ, Griffith(?)
South: Flinders, Melbourne, Monash, Adelaide/USA(?), Deakin(?), LaTrobe(?)
West: UWA
New Zealand(?)

There's 16 teams for a nice draw structure (although it should be noted my knowledge of teams from the other regions is pretty bad)


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: Rickert on August 19, 2009, 09:10:10 PM
IMHO:
Raising the standard of AUG Ultimate is a laudable goal.  However, having two divisions (at least this year) is probably not the way to do it.  The AFDA national-level tournaments have qualifying events, which, in principle, weed out the weak teams that bring down the overall quality of the sport that is played.  The AUS, in contrast, seems to accept all-comers (or perhaps I am wrong about this?): it is this fundamental fact that will prevent AUG Ultimate from becoming an overall high-level event.  The only reasonable way to achieve the goal of "raising the standard" (at least within the current framework) is to restrict the total number of teams (say, less than 20, if this is the logistical limit) and hold true qualifying events in the larger regions.  In this case, a second division could still be utilized for those squads not making the cut (or those who recognize that are not competitive).  Obviously it is too late to do it this year.

A two-division split is only sensible (this year) if there is a truly bimodal distribution in squad skill, and there is an objective measure of this "skill".  As squads have varied significantly from regional events to AUGs (as there was no indication that the results from these tournies would affect play at AUGs and therefore no incentive to use it as anything but a development tool), using these as a metric for dividing teams is highly arbitrary.  The same argument holds, for results of AUGs in previous years.

If the bimodality constraint is not satisfied, squads that have worked hard to develop new players and build a true University Club will find their season culminating in a week of smashing loosely affiliated groups of people (I hesitate to call them "teams") and playing precious little Ultimate.  Informing teams this late in the season (after we have all paid our rego fees!!) that they are to be playing "frisbee" rather than "Ultimate" at AUGs this year, and coming up with arbitrary criteria for this relegation, is a terrible way to run a tournament.

The only reasonable option is to carry over these considerations to next year, where they can be presented to clubs at an appropriate time (i.e., at the beginning of the year).  If logistical constraints require some semblance of a "2-division draw" simply divide teams equally between the divisions and have crossovers for placing games.  This has the downside that the high-functioning Clubs will have to play some of the "loosely affiliated groups of people" (although this is what would have happened anyways in a single division), but has the benefit that individual teams will not be arbitrarily punished.

-Ryan (ANU)


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: biskit on August 19, 2009, 09:56:33 PM
A 12 team 'top pool' is just simply too small (it excludes to many 'serious' teams), I think twig's suggestion of multiple smaller pools could work really well, however Id like to see the top three go up (from 4 pools of 5). Top 2 go into 2 x 4 team power pools, 3rd places go into a 4 team 'second chance' pool.

The top two teams from the second chance pool play off against the bottom two teams of the power pools for the final 2 spots in the quarter finals. The second chance reduces the risk of a reasonable team being knock out due to being seeded into a tough initial pool. It means 1 extra game for the teams coming into the bottom of the quarters. I think this is reasonable to give them a chance to play back up.

If a team comes 3rd in their initial pool, they probably dont deserve 'much' of a chance at winning  the tournament. The winners of the 'second chance' pools will be against the top 2 teams from the power pools, but it will give a team who was unfairly seeded (or who was playing poorly seeded opponents) a good chance of playing back up into the main draw and finishing in a reasonable position. It also prevents teams from being 'safe' once they make the power pools (which only skews the draw further next year).

For the finalists, this would mean 4 initial pools games + 3 'second stage' pool games (including power, second chance and bottom pools) + potentially 1 'bottom of the power pools games) + quarters, semi and final = realistically 10 games.

At the end of the day, I just want to play good ultimate. I hope we are given a chance to play in a fair draw, that recognizes that seeding for uni games is really really hard to get right.

The list below are the teams currently registered on the afda site. Is there anybody else who is coming? This list is only 17 teams long...
UTSexperience   
UQ Ultimate Lovers
Flinders Fury
BUUF   
UWA
Griffith
Newcastle
Monash
AU
Mac
QUT
ANU
UWS
UNSW
MUtation
USYD
Vic Wildcats (NZ)   


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: Jangles on August 20, 2009, 12:06:08 AM
So if it was decided to only have "serious contenders" in div 1, who would they be?

East: Sydney, Newcastle, Macquarie, ANU(?), UTS(?), CSU(?)
North: UQ, Griffith(?)
South: Flinders, Melbourne, Monash, Adelaide/USA(?), Deakin(?), LaTrobe(?)
West: UWA
New Zealand(?)

There's 16 teams for a nice draw structure (although it should be noted my knowledge of teams from the other regions is pretty bad)

haha if you include griffith you would have to add QUT. despite our every 2nd year wooden spoon this year we actually have some talent. unfortunately they have me as coach still when will they learn. i am not opposed to 2 divisions but if it splits 16 and 3 then there is a bit of a problem there as you play like 3 games in div 2 and one has to be a repeat game.

10 and the rest id probably be ok with but i can see some teams thinking we should be in div 1 when they probably shouldn't.


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: JdR on August 20, 2009, 12:37:28 AM
Simmo, I think you also need to factor 2010 and onwards into your thinking.  I know you want to sort 2009, but you'll make for stronger arguments if you're able to put a longer term vision out there, and then work out how 2009 fits into it.  Presumably this would also help with swinging AUS one way or the other.

I'd also encourage you to consider replicating the approach AFDA has developed for Nats and AMUC, in terms of size of the event, slots to regions, seeding and draw.  Its been devised to minimise annual arguing, and seems to be fairly well accepted.



Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: simmo on August 20, 2009, 02:01:50 AM
The list below are the teams currently registered on the afda site. Is there anybody else who is coming? This list is only 17 teams long...
UTSexperience   
UQ Ultimate Lovers
Flinders Fury
BUUF   
UWA
Griffith
Newcastle
Monash
AU
Mac
QUT
ANU
UWS
UNSW
MUtation
USYD
Vic Wildcats (NZ)   

There's a couple of teams missing from that list who aren't certain starters. I will know for sure early next week who is actually coming. There's also the "holy shit who are they" entrants that seem to pop up every year. Ideally there will be 20 teams and we can just have one division and use the UPA College Nats format.

Remember that two divisions is not a certainty yet.

JdR - AUS has those kind of processes already in place, but are quite flexible in terms of our recommendations. I'd love to have things set in place from day one, but AUG has never had the same number of teams two years in a row so it's quite hard to plan.

Chris L - Your lack of Ballarat in that list upsets me :(


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: thebozzman on August 20, 2009, 02:46:38 AM
CSU have just confirmed with me. It will be a combined Bathurst and Wagga team... So a top candidate for a Div 2 placement.


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: newk on August 20, 2009, 06:40:21 AM
sorry dave,
but are you suggesting that syd should be seeded above newie because they came 2nd LAST YEAR? My god, newie won easterns in a canter and if you reckon that an extra half a team will beat chris-boy now that he has pecs, you are not only displaying the sydney-centric attitue that has plagued ultimate for the last decade but are also demonstrating your own, shall we say, unique take on the game. bring on the gold coast and watch out for the boy! he is awesome and is feared by all in newcastle (most especially by his brother)
p.s. he is coming to prague


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: Henry on August 20, 2009, 08:25:09 AM
Unlucky Chris, for forgetting to mention Ballarat you're going to end up with 830am games every day, with no 2 games anywhere near each other.


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: DaveR on August 20, 2009, 10:25:41 AM
sorry dave,
but are you suggesting that syd should be seeded above newie because they came 2nd LAST YEAR? My god, newie won easterns in a canter and if you reckon that an extra half a team will beat chris-boy now that he has pecs, you are not only displaying the sydney-centric attitue that has plagued ultimate for the last decade but are also demonstrating your own, shall we say, unique take on the game. bring on the gold coast and watch out for the boy! he is awesome and is feared by all in newcastle (most especially by his brother)
p.s. he is coming to prague

hate to use history against you, but the first reason that i would say that is that most of the previous years AUG's seedings have used the previous years results as some form of indicator for seeding...We got 4 seed last year and 2nd in NSW because thats exactly where we slotted in from the previous years results. other people were seeded pretty much accordingly. flinders were seeded 8/9 or something...cos thats what they came the year before.

i wasnt at EUG and by all accounts Newcastle were far and away the best team there, and gave everyone the smackdown. but EUG isnt a qualifying tournement or a direct determinent of seeding. as for AUG...well we'll just have to wait and see.

and simmo...what is your dividing line for "serious medal contender". I hate to use UTS as an example but i know them them the best, and they where who i had in mind making my comment. They are a solid team who are unlikely to medal despite massive improvement, and will struggle to make top 8. Where does of a team of that character fit in your notion of serious medal contender. I mean you could narrow it down to 8 or 10 teams maybe...where do you draw the line? seems abit arbitrary to me.


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: simmo on August 20, 2009, 09:08:32 PM
Unlucky Chris, for forgetting to mention Ballarat you're going to end up with 830am games every day, with no 2 games anywhere near each other.
Have I become that predictable?


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: biskit on August 20, 2009, 11:16:16 PM
and simmo...what is your dividing line for "serious medal contender". I hate to use UTS as an example but i know them them the best, and they where who i had in mind making my comment. They are a solid team who are unlikely to medal despite massive improvement, and will struggle to make top 8. Where does of a team of that character fit in your notion of serious medal contender. I mean you could narrow it down to 8 or 10 teams maybe...where do you draw the line? seems abit arbitrary to me.

This is the 'frustrating' point at the present... I think there is definitely a place at augs for teams like ANU, UTS and the other 'middle of the road' teams to be able to play in the 'competitive' section of the draw. These are teams who will put up a reasonable fight against the very top of the competition and who will have a pretty miserable week if they are stuck 'beating up' the purely social teams.

The 'middle of the pack' often have a bunch of reasonable to good nationals players who are keen to play good, competitive ultimate, but just don't have the depth to hang with the very top teams. So its just not fair to draw a line through the seedings and say "sorry, all teams below this line aren't good enough to be given the chance to play "the good teams" this year" unless that line is well defined before the tournament... this year that is simply not the case. Teams are registered under the assumption that they would be playing div 1, so then for this year at least, div 2 should be optional not enforced.

anyway, im hoping that this is all just hot air (mainly from me) and that nothing like this eventuates once the total number of teams is known.


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: moroney on August 21, 2009, 12:49:22 AM
Fuck it. One division.


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: moroney on August 21, 2009, 01:01:47 AM
Fuck it. One division.


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: Frank on August 21, 2009, 06:52:04 AM
Fuck it. One division.


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: Brettski on August 21, 2009, 09:12:25 AM
Fuck it. One division.

Word on the street - Gong will be sending a team, but it will be complete newbies most of whom will be unspirited as all hell (my sis knows them all and chose not to play for this reason).

If I get the time I'll try and give them a couple of training sessions so that when we all play them at AUG it may be slightly less painful...


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: Chris L on August 21, 2009, 06:28:29 PM
fuck off. 2 divisions.

Surely there are 6 or so less competitive teams who can be convinced that playing against similarly skilled and motivated teams is more fun than getting repeated beat-downs for the first couple of days. Simmo can sweeten the deal with a "no early starts" or "take Wednesday off" policy or something.


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: littletom on August 23, 2009, 04:11:49 AM
Chris is fat!

Sorry, just thought I should add something constructive to the conversation


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: Frank on August 23, 2009, 10:15:09 PM

Word on the street - Gong will be sending a team, but it will be complete newbies most of whom will be unspirited as all hell (my sis knows them all and chose not to play for this reason).

If I get the time I'll try and give them a couple of training sessions so that when we all play them at AUG it may be slightly less painful...

Gotta love playing teams like that. You think because they are new it will all be fun and games, but they turn out to be argumentative jerks, there are collisions, people get injured, and everyone leaves with a bad taste in their mouths. Quality.


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: moroney on August 23, 2009, 10:59:34 PM
Quote
Gotta love playing teams like that. You think because they are new it will all be fun and games, but they turn out to be argumentative jerks, there are collisions, people get injured, and everyone leaves with a bad taste in their mouths. Quality.

Hahahaha Swinburne 2006. Love it.

I hear what Chris Lavis is saying, however I'm unsure if you'll find 6 teams to voluntarially submit themselves to chump division. If I was a team captain of a developing team, I might not think my team could win (even though you have to have some kind of competitive goal), but I would want them to get experience seeing and playing against better teams. It would suck at the time if you're getting reamed 15-0 but hopefully the n00bs learn something. Also, when you go back the next year and lose 15-10, you can use it as a means to mark improvement.


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: simmo on August 23, 2009, 11:00:24 PM
Fuck it. One division.

Word on the street - Gong will be sending a team, but it will be complete newbies most of whom will be unspirited as all hell (my sis knows them all and chose not to play for this reason).

If I get the time I'll try and give them a couple of training sessions so that when we all play them at AUG it may be slightly less painful...
Are they the same mob as last year?


So as far as this little black duck knows, there's 20 teams. Waiting to hear word from AUS on the official list of entrants. Any more than 20 and we'll look closer at two divisions. If there's just the 20 it'll be one division.


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: simmo on August 23, 2009, 11:04:01 PM
Hahahaha Swinburne 2006. Love it.
And BUUF in 2004. I think we were the first uni team ever to finish dead last in both games and spirit. But let's not get too nostalgic.


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: moroney on August 23, 2009, 11:39:46 PM
Quote
And BUUF in 2004. I think we were the first uni team ever to finish dead last in both games and spirit. But let's not get too nostalgic.

Goldiggaz went close to doing this as well didn't they? Impressive on a world stage...


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: Frank on August 24, 2009, 02:40:49 AM
And BUUF in 2004. I think we were the first uni team ever to finish dead last in both games and spirit. But let's not get too nostalgic.

Wow.


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: Tiger on August 24, 2009, 09:13:32 AM
Frank rediscovers ultitalk; hilarity and one-word posts ensue.


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: simmo on August 25, 2009, 07:22:03 AM
OK, so AUS told me their "policy" is a 10 team Division 1 with everyone else in Division 2. I told them bollocks. They pointed me to their Divisional Sport Guideline.

So the formal recommendation I've put forward is for a 12-team Division 1 and 11-team Division 2. I'm not going to say who is in what division until AUS have accepted the format, however I remain confident everyone will be ok with where they have been placed.


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: littletom on August 25, 2009, 07:33:09 AM
Lolz!

And there I was, thinking that the old retarded days of unigames were past...


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: littletom on August 25, 2009, 07:57:23 AM
Does AUS have a vision for what they want to do with frisbee? Do they have a motivation for going with 10 teams over another amount? I'm curious to know if its not just an arbitrary figure they have picked.

12 teams is going to stir a lot of shit. 2 divisions might result in shit being stirred regardless of the split, but I think it would be wise to avoid as much shit stirring as possible.

An obvious problem is that there is no predetermined process to figure out who lives or dies (metaphorically speaking). No one knows the process for this to be decided, let alone how the cards will fall when the process is carried out.

I sincerely hope we can do better that an arbitrary limit of 10 or 12 teams. We need a rationale for such a limited number.

ps: I'd just like to add that none of this would be a problem if they had not cancelled qualifiers like EUGs. With a formal qualification process for division one (all the AUGs only happy go lucky kids get auto entry to Div 2) there is the opportunity to build a fair and open process by which teams can earn a place in the top division. Any Div 1 allocation system that is based entirely on results from previous years and/or haphazard observations from a grab bag of tournaments and IVs is fraught with danger.


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: simmo on August 25, 2009, 06:12:52 PM
The 10 teams is a blanket policy across all sports. I agree that it is a bit silly to use last year's results as the indicator, but as I said, it's a policy that applies to all sports. Basically they want Division 1 to be elite competition, with Division 2 being the party (my words, not theirs)

There are two teams (that didn't compete last year. I reckon you can guess who) that I'm pushing to be added to the top 10 (that are returning) from last year to make a 12 team Division 1. Hopefully I'll hear back today.


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: DaveR on August 25, 2009, 07:18:30 PM
if there is a 12 team division 1, i would be happy to have less games than last year. it will make the compeititon tighter, but in that case teams would benefit from less games. It would add little to the standard of ultimate making teams play more. Certainly no 4 game days would be appreciated if every game is going to be a hard slog, as opposed to some classic uni games canters against inexperienced teams.


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: Chris L on August 25, 2009, 07:50:03 PM
So top 10 teams from last year are FU, USYD, AU, MELB, MQU, UWA, NCLE, MON, LTU, and DEAK. I'm assuming the 2 extra teams Simmo mentioned are UQ and NZ(?). I think the top 8 teams from last year all deserve to be in a 12 team div 1 competition this year. I'm not so sure about LTU and DEAK because I don't know a lot about them. I do know ANU and UTS would be very disappointed to miss out on a div 1 spot because they both have much improved squads compared to last year and CSU got bronze at EUG. Also having 6 southern region teams and only 3 eastern region teams based on 1 year of Southern domination (when AUGs happened to be in Melbourne) seems a bit odd.


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: moroney on August 25, 2009, 07:58:28 PM
Quote
Does AUS have a vision for what they want to do with frisbee? Do they have a motivation for going with 10 teams over another amount? I'm curious to know if its not just an arbitrary figure they have picked.

Jeezus I cant believe I'm about to do this, but I agree with pretty much everything Tom said.

In regards to the top 10-12. Latrobe will not be entering a team this year which opens up one more spot (which I think ANU should take). I'm not sure if deakin are coming either. I think CSU and UTS would round out the top 10-12.

Quote
Also having 6 southern region teams and only 3 eastern region teams based on 1 year of Southern domination (when AUGs happened to be in Melbourne) seems a bit odd.

Don't be bitter that the polar shift has occured and you're on the wrong side of the equator chrisboy.


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: DaveR on August 25, 2009, 08:00:11 PM
are AU allowed to be in div 1 with the team being from 2 uni's?


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: simmo on August 25, 2009, 08:27:46 PM
are AU allowed to be in div 1 with the team being from 2 uni's?
Negative.

The teams that are assured of a Div1 berth are Flinders, Sydney, Melbourne, Macquarie, UWA, Monash, Newcastle, UTS, ANU and Ballarat. UQ's absence last year mean they don't get an automatic spot, no matter how good their team is. I've applied for an exception on their behalf and I'd say they're 95%. The 12th spot (I like even numbers) is still in talks, with a couple of teams in the running.


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: Chris L on August 25, 2009, 08:34:07 PM
Quote
Don't be bitter that the polar shift has occured and you're on the wrong side of the equator chrisboy.

This would be the polar shift that sees Latrobe not sending a team, deakin unsure and AU having to join up with USA?


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: simmo on August 25, 2009, 08:35:48 PM
if there is a 12 team division 1, i would be happy to have less games than last year. it will make the compeititon tighter, but in that case teams would benefit from less games. It would add little to the standard of ultimate making teams play more. Certainly no 4 game days would be appreciated if every game is going to be a hard slog, as opposed to some classic uni games canters against inexperienced teams.
The draw I've submitted has less games than last year per team (9-10 as opposed to 10-12) and no 4-game days for anyone in either division.


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: moroney on August 25, 2009, 08:52:55 PM
Quote
This would be the polar shift that sees Latrobe not sending a team, deakin unsure and AU having to join up with USA?

I smell a Truter-Pillar-esque bet coming on. You like playing in a dress Lavis? Loser of Monash v Newcastle has to wear a dress in their final placing game?


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: moroney on August 25, 2009, 09:13:52 PM
(http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~engcbanb/old-photos/06.jpg)
My pick for you. Will bring out your eyes.


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: Chris L on August 25, 2009, 09:56:14 PM
Quote
I smell a Truter-Pillar-esque bet coming on. You like playing in a dress Lavis? Loser of Monash v Newcastle has to wear a dress in their final placing game?

No thanks. I prefer to keep my dress wearing to private, intimate occasions.


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: simmo on August 25, 2009, 10:19:13 PM
More of a coat than a dress.

I'd suggest getting a wedding dress from an op shop.


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: biskit on August 25, 2009, 11:06:55 PM
thanks for your efforts simmo, it must be tough work trying to convince AUS that ultimate can take care of itself. Great effort and Im glad to have seen the end of the 8+ team round robin pools for the first 2.5 days. Whilst 12 teams is pretty small (would have been happy with 16), it will hopefully mean a more rewarding competition for all involved.

Also, have CSU registered? I was pretty impressed when we played them at the Sydney IV on the weekend, they have come along way in a couple of years since I had last played them in 07.


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: simmo on August 25, 2009, 11:17:49 PM
Yep. CSU are there.

For interests sake, here are the confirmed Div 2 teams
- Adelaide/UniSa
- Australian Catholic Uni
- Australian College of Physical Education
- CSU
- Victoria University of Wellington (aka NZ)
- University of New England
- University of Western Sydney
- University of Wollongong
- Victoria University

...plus 2 more to be confirmed later today.


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: thebozzman on August 25, 2009, 11:33:01 PM
Yep. CSU are there.

For interests sake, here are the confirmed Div 2 teams
- CSU

...plus 2 more to be confirmed later today.

OUCH!
A bronze medal at EUG's over UTS and playing Savage at the Syd IV on the weekend, only being defeated by Newcastle has landed them in Div 2...


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: simmo on August 25, 2009, 11:38:49 PM
Craigie asked to be in Div2, chaaaaaaaamp.


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: Henry on August 25, 2009, 11:40:58 PM
Are the NZ team OK with being shafted to Div2?  You'd think if they were going to fly all the way here that they'd want to play some quality ultimate?


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: simmo on August 25, 2009, 11:46:27 PM
Wasn't really up to me, unfortunately :(

They, and AU/USA, would have been informed upon registering that they will be in Division 2.


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: moroney on August 26, 2009, 12:35:45 AM
Quote
Craigie asked to be in Div2, chaaaaaaaamp.

Got Him.


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: thebozzman on August 26, 2009, 01:23:39 AM
Craigie asked to be in Div2, chaaaaaaaamp.

That is only because he is super soft!!


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: kiely on August 26, 2009, 02:29:09 AM


They, and AU/USA, would have been informed upon registering that they will be in Division 2.

dont think they will like that..hahahahah


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: moroney on August 26, 2009, 05:12:10 AM
One Division: Simple reason:

Being fortunate enough to be on a strong AUG team, I love nothing more than going out and getting shitfaced at night knowing I only have to roll some gumby team in the morning. The walkover games are a right of passage for all university players. This works both ways. If I was on a gumby team and knew I had to play Flinders in the morning, I wouldn't exactly be tucking myself in for an early one because I would know that we were going to get reamed either way.

Moz + Seb.


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: nickp on August 26, 2009, 05:40:51 AM
Speaking on behalf of the NZ team - I think my players will be pretty gutted going over just to walk away with a div 2 title.  :-\

I had no idea about there being 2 divisions till I read this. Looks like I'll be spending a week drunk.

I wonder if we could organise a decent game on the side somewhere ...


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: thefole on August 26, 2009, 09:08:35 AM
one div and four games everyday!!

i'm paying a lot of money to play at aug's and i want it to be worth it.


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: Tiger on August 26, 2009, 10:17:39 AM
Speaking on behalf of the NZ team - I think my players will be pretty gutted going over just to walk away with a div 2 title.  :-\

Uni SA/Adelaide will be more than decent, I suspect. As will CSU.


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: BJ on August 26, 2009, 10:20:12 AM
The AU/Unisa team would make the quarter finals and be competitve with any div 1 side.


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: Tiger on August 26, 2009, 08:05:59 PM
The AU/Unisa team would make the quarter finals and be competitve with any div 1 side.

GRUMPY!


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: Chris L on August 26, 2009, 10:01:28 PM
Hey Simmo, what does your proposed div 1 draw look like? 3 pools of 4, 4 pools of 3, amount of crossovers etc?


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: SammyO on August 27, 2009, 12:11:38 AM
The AU/Unisa team would make the quarter finals and be competitve with any div 1 side.

BJ recruiting from 2 Unis doesn't make your chances any better.

The walkover games are a right of passage for all university players.

Too right they are moz.


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: biskit on August 27, 2009, 02:05:52 AM
The AU/Unisa team would make the quarter finals and be competitve with any div 1 side.

GRUMPY!

They have full right to be grumpy along with the NZ team.

It sounds like things are set in stone for this year, but I sure hope there is more clarity about the qualification process for next year so that teams aren't having to commit to uni games before they know which division they are going to play in (especially if they are coming from NZ). It is just unfortunate that it worked out this way this year, and I feel really sorry for the teams who have been bumped into div 2 when they thought they should be div 1(mainly because I have been dreading the thought of having it happen to us).

Im also surprised that CSU chose to play in the lower division... It may turn out to be a reasonably good fight between the top 3 or so teams.


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: thebozzman on August 27, 2009, 03:33:44 AM
I think regional qualifiers will mean more next year, as well as attending AUG's the previous year.

If you don't attend, you start in Div 2 and need to work your way up.

CSU chose Div 2 due to the fact that they are joining Bathurst and Wagga campuses for the competition this year.


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: nickp on August 27, 2009, 04:07:13 AM
It sounds like things are set in stone for this year, but I sure hope there is more clarity about the qualification process for next year so that teams aren't having to commit to uni games before they know which division they are going to play in (especially if they are coming from NZ). It is just unfortunate that it worked out this way this year, and I feel really sorry for the teams who have been bumped into div 2 when they thought they should be div 1(mainly because I have been dreading the thought of having it happen to us).

Im also surprised that CSU chose to play in the lower division... It may turn out to be a reasonably good fight between the top 3 or so teams.

Would be nice if a couple more teams "choose" to be in div 2. Maybe we can play the better teams more than once somehow.

The main reason I'm annoyed is that NZ Uni Games normally has 6 teams, of which 3 are learning from scratch at the tournament. Giving up to 3 competitive games. Actually our team won this year with a combined score of 109-12 in 7 games. I was looking forward to having to work more than that. Especially when we have to pay more for the tournament and travel than you ozzie fullas.

I wonder if our uni games would count as a regional qualifier. We can't make it over every year.


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: Tiger on August 27, 2009, 07:02:16 AM
They have full right to be grumpy along with the NZ team.

I agree. Fair enough AUS doesn't want to give combined/international teams a shot at a medal (what *are* their official reasons, Simmo?) but to set it in stone a month before the tournament - ie at the point of no return - is a bit of a dick move.


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: littletom on August 27, 2009, 07:48:16 AM
I should also quickly point out that regional tournaments such as EUGs, ECC and their respective north sorth and west buddies will be *COMPLETELY* fucked from an ultimate perspective next year... World Clubs, U23 and U19.... all will pull players to Europe during the entire period that those tournaments will be played.

Maybe an emphasise on qualification tournaments for 2011?


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: simmo on August 27, 2009, 09:24:02 AM
I agree. Fair enough AUS doesn't want to give combined/international teams a shot at a medal (what *are* their official reasons, Simmo?) but to set it in stone a month before the tournament - ie at the point of no return - is a bit of a dick move.
I totally agree that it's not ideal but I believe AUS informed the teams from the outset that they would be in Division 2. Nick can you let me know if this wasn't the case.

Here's the AUS Divisional Sport Guideline
https://secure.unigames.com.au/_uploads/res/1_1387.pdf

Point 1.5...
Quote
The competition size of division 1 will be advised one week after the close of registrations, once the number of teams in the combined competition are confirmed.

It's a bit difficult to make a call on these things before you know how many teams are coming.


Also make a note of section 2 - Qualification Guidelines. To the best of my knowledge this will stand for 2010 and be reviewed for 2011.


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: DaveR on August 27, 2009, 09:45:37 AM
how serious are AUS on the 6-8 team div 1 thing (in the future). Is this document based on the assumption that there usually arent 20+ unis playing most sports. A 6-8 team div 1 would blow over 5 days, hardly play at all, and alot of stiff comp would be shifted into div 2. I suppose most sports arent used to playing multiple games a day either.


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: DaveR on August 27, 2009, 09:47:33 AM
also its problematic with only 1 relegation spot automatically provided...it will lead to teams being entrenched in div 1, and if you happen to have a bad year, may be stuck in div 2 for years. And it makes it super tough for teams to battle up out of div 2. Dislike.


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: Henry on August 27, 2009, 07:24:24 PM
The thing is Maple, I don't think any of the other sports actually play for 5 days...  Some of them only have one day of competition!

If they had a policy that they've always stuck to then fine, I think everyone would be able to accept it and deal with it.  The fact that they're only choosing to enforce it this year where in previous years there's been 20+ teams and only one division, is a bit weird.

Also, ultimate can't be the only sport that sees a teams skill level dramatically change over a 1 year period.  Do other sports complain? Just curious


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: moroney on August 27, 2009, 07:41:49 PM
Pissy, just pull out the “oh well maybe AUG isn’t the place for this competition anymore” line. They know how much money they make out of this sport that uses practically no equipment and no referees. They also know that we’re the biggest sport there (at least we were at one stage is this still the case?). If we can’t be treated as a sport that has unique needs and considerations, then maybe we should go somewhere that will. This being a complete bluff of course as everyone knows the only way we get fresh blood in this sport is through the lure of uni-games-poon.


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: simmo on August 27, 2009, 07:58:51 PM
We were the biggest sport in 2006. Not even close any more. Off the top of my head AFL, basketball, beach volleyball, netball and touch were all bigger last year.

Maple - I don't think we'll struggle to be allowed 10-12 teams in a Div1. Teams can apply for exceptions, too. If a Div2 team suddenly picks up a bunch of Seppos they can apply to go up. Similarly, a Div1 team can apply to go down if they lose everyone through graduation.

Bear in mind that if we drop to 14 teams or whatever next year (quite likely due to reasons Twats mentioned, plus AUG being in Perth) we'll be back to one division.


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: Tiger on August 27, 2009, 08:12:22 PM
Hang the fuck on - doesn't AUG just rotate between Melbourne and the Gold Coast?


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: Chris L on August 27, 2009, 09:14:42 PM
AUGs is on the gold coast every second year, but I thought it still moved around the country for the other years.


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: moroney on August 27, 2009, 09:25:46 PM
Chris is right, Tiger's a n00b.


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: suj on August 27, 2009, 11:57:39 PM
I thought tiger was being sarcastic in his tigery way.


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: nickp on August 28, 2009, 03:46:08 AM
I agree. Fair enough AUS doesn't want to give combined/international teams a shot at a medal (what *are* their official reasons, Simmo?) but to set it in stone a month before the tournament - ie at the point of no return - is a bit of a dick move.
I totally agree that it's not ideal but I believe AUS informed the teams from the outset that they would be in Division 2. Nick can you let me know if this wasn't the case.

Here's the AUS Divisional Sport Guideline
https://secure.unigames.com.au/_uploads/res/1_1387.pdf

Point 1.5...
Quote
The competition size of division 1 will be advised one week after the close of registrations, once the number of teams in the combined competition are confirmed.

The first I heard of 2 divisions was on here. I inquired with the person I have been in contact with at AUS and have received no reply. Except to ask for more forms filled out and more money.

Hmmm if you note Point 1.2
Quote
AUS will have the power to go outside these parameters if it is in the best interests of maintaining the integrity of the Competition.
And Point 3.1
Quote
Teams that have automatically qualified for division 1 will be displayed at www.unigames.com.au. Only the minimum number of teams (six) for division 1 will be displayed. Additional places will depend on the competition size which will be confirmed 1 week after the close of registrations.

And then read the guidelines which are posted on the site: http://www.unisport.com.au/_uploads/res/1_2718.pdf   
Quote
Ultimate Frisbee - Will be competed as a single division competition.

Theres a pretty good argument for one division along the lines of any major Ultimate tournament.


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: BJ on August 28, 2009, 07:03:30 AM
Wow great digging there! Im all for a higher level of competition, but honestly that isn't what the majority of Aussie's who play AUG's are there for. Nor does the strength across the nation allow a division split at university level, (let alone club level.) If anyone wanted an exclusively high level mixed tournament, they'd be going to Hobart a couple weeks later, (for substantially less). If the split is only to please AUS then there is clearly not enough transparent planning in regard to the process to validate it for this year. AUS doesn't have the involvement, planning or clarity (regarding rules) set in place to build to a division split, let alone snap it into place with-in a month.

I do understand that AU could not launch the complaint since our UniSA assisted participation is at the whim of AUS, but it really is unfair on teams like CSU and NZ, they'll be forking out and training for maybe one game that will actually matter. As for AU, even if we had to sit out semis or quarters, I would personally relish the chance to prove myself and the training that we are doing at a worthy level, instead of against a team of 7 to 9 newbies.


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: DaveR on August 28, 2009, 10:56:58 AM
come on Simmo, let NZ play div 1....that guy has just made a prefectly good set of arguments, no reasonable decision making panel could argue with the inherent problems with which the process has been carried out and the general lack of communication....it would have to be very obstinant and highly unfair.

Putting lawyer cap on (degree has gotta be worth something) with the representations that have been made, the policies AUS has espoused and the dicotomy between that and reality, and the lack of contrary information on anything other than an informal discussion board for people who like frisbee enough, which hardly constitutes reasonable notice by any standards, is seriously problematic and not only sucks for the teams but actually calls into question the legitimacy and proffessionalism of the event, something i imagine AUS is trying to promote. At least its worth making the argument for NZ, it would certainy enhance the "integirty of the competition" if legitimate teams were to play in div 1, and it would do alot to encourage future teams (or the converse, the situation this year would discourage future teams from bothering if they are going to be treated so arbitrarily).

Also, if there is any team that should be deemed worthy of an exception then  a NZ team should have it, due to the patently obvious logistic difficulties with it competing every year. Its alot tougher for them to make it than UQ. Its pretty fucked if what this guy says is true and there was no communication on registration...imagine if it hadnt been aired here and rocking up expecting a relativly high quality international tournament and getting placed in the chump division. Just plain unfair. And it also makes AUS look really stupid, which is maybe worth pointing out to them.

I know you got a thankless job (so thanks mate, you do a good job) but this situation is pretty ridiculous. AU kinda doesnt have a leg to stand on due to its duel uni thing (sorry) and CSU chose their course, but there doesnt seem a justifiable reason for treating a an international team  as such (especially since they came top 8(?) in 07 when they (if its the same uni) last competed).

Just my thought. Best of luck to you nickp.


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: simmo on August 28, 2009, 11:22:36 AM
come on Simmo, let NZ play div 1....that guy has just made a prefectly good set of arguments, no reasonable decision making panel could argue with the inherent problems with which the process has been carried out and the general lack of communication....it would have to be very obstinant and highly unfair.
I don't disagree with him. Not for a second. The decision wasn't up to me.

Nick, can you please email me a list of your players and the highest level of ultimate they have played in the last 12-18 months (Worlds, NZ Nats, etc).

I don't want to come off as shifting the blame here, but NZ's entry into the competition went directly through AUS and not through me, so I don't know who was told what. I know that AU/USA were told they would be in Div2 if there was one, so I (naively) assumed NZ would be told the same thing. Obviously I was wrong.

If it's any consolation (it's not, but hear me out), the Div2 draw will separate into a top 6 and bottom 5 on Tuesday. I fully believe that the fight for medals between NZ, AU/USA, CSU, QUT, UNSW and whoever the 6th team is (Vic probably) will actually be a pretty tight comp.


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: nickp on August 28, 2009, 11:28:39 PM
Nick, can you please email me a list of your players and the highest level of ultimate they have played in the last 12-18 months (Worlds, NZ Nats, etc).
Done. Basics: 3 worlds players, another 6 who played in the semis at our Nationals in April, 5 more who won our Uni Games and a couple of Newbies. Should do ok.

If it's any consolation (it's not, but hear me out), the Div2 draw will separate into a top 6 and bottom 5 on Tuesday. I fully believe that the fight for medals between NZ, AU/USA, CSU, QUT, UNSW and whoever the 6th team is (Vic probably) will actually be a pretty tight comp.
Choice, well that sounds more fun.
We do have one positive in that we'll know noone over there so every game will be different. Gets boring playing the same teams/players all the time.


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: Twig on August 29, 2009, 05:48:51 AM
I personally dont think everyone should be getting so worked up over the divisions.  I feel for NZ i would hate to not know that the tourny you were coming over for isnt exactly what was sold to you. 

What i think is the most annoying this year in terms of AUS communication is the increase in player roster size.  I am all for the idea but it is really shit that i knew three weeks before our UTM that there was going to be an increase in the player roster size. Also as we only found out mid August (a month after we had completed selections) it makes it almost impossible to get more players to come as i cant expect them to pay $600 one way to fly to the Gold Coast, just because AUS cant get there shit together.  Thus we are going to AUG's 1 maybe 2 players down on other Div 1 teams which is going to put us at a disadvantage. 

Btw pissy this is in no way a dig at you because i know that rule changes are only submitted in August and i agree that we need 18 players but AUS doesnt think about the teams that have to travel across the country to compete (and does so year in and year out without much complaining).

Finally to all those teams that complain about how much they have to pay to play AUG have a think about us who before even being able to pay for player registration are up for and average of $700 in flights


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: DaveR on August 30, 2009, 08:29:04 AM
so whats deal with G&G selections with 2 divisions? i know you have given an answer to this before but i forgoet.

Also, its less than a month, anyone wanna start posting actual predicitions or G&G teams. I did a provisional run down on G&G contenders...it was long.


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: simmo on August 30, 2009, 09:22:41 AM
One G&G team is picked. Both divisions eligible.


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: Eels 88 on August 30, 2009, 10:12:48 AM
Also, its less than a month, anyone wanna start posting actual predicitions or G&G teams. I did a provisional run down on G&G contenders...it was long.

I heard a rumour that it was harder to make the Monash starting line-up this year than it would be to get G+G?

Wanna shed any light on that Mr Moroney?  :P

Peter Adam from UWA is a GG shoe in. Kids got some mad skill.


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: moroney on August 30, 2009, 09:41:11 PM
Quote
I heard a rumour that it was harder to make the Monash starting line-up this year than it would be to get G+G?

Wanna shed any light on that Mr Moroney?

I never said that. Not once. Unless I was hammered. I do believe I said that it would be harder to make the AUG team than it would to be to win AUG, but there's nothing controversial about that surely? I'm more than happy to offer you the same wager I offered Mr. Lavis...


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: simmo on August 30, 2009, 10:23:05 PM
If anyone still gives a shit, I've posted a write-up on what went on with the decisions behind the two divisions and seeding for AUG on my blog.

http://ballaratultimate.blogspot.com


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: Eels 88 on August 31, 2009, 04:32:38 AM
Quote
I heard a rumour that it was harder to make the Monash starting line-up this year than it would be to get G+G?

Wanna shed any light on that Mr Moroney?

I never said that. Not once. Unless I was hammered.

Point in question?

Moz, I was down at league the other night when I heard some kids giving you shit mate. But fear not my friend, I stood up for you.

They were on about you being a "blatant homosexual, and liking to eat dick sandwiches."

But because I'm a good mate and have your back, I put them straight.

I was like: "no way man, no f****** way, Moz is a cool dude. He would never do that."

No sir, I would not stand for such accusations.

I looked those kids straight in the eye and I told them that there was no way you eat dick sandwiches - you don't like bread.


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: Chris L on September 06, 2009, 08:17:47 PM
Are we going to get to see the draw in advance or do we have to wait for that Sunday afternoon meeting on the Gold Coast?


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: simmo on September 07, 2009, 03:03:44 AM
Hopefully. I know what would happen if I sent it out - something would change meaning I had to redo it.

The format however...

Division 1
2 pools of 6. Round robin over Mon-Tues
Next phase is 3 pools of 4 - top 4, middle 4, bottom 4. Results carry over, 2 crossover games on Wed
3-6 and 7-10 play pre-semis on Thursday morning. 1-4, 5-8, 9-12 semis on Thursday arvo.
Playoffs on Friday

Division 2
3 pools (4, 4 and 3). Round robin on Mon-Tues.
Next phase is top 6 and bottom 5. Results carry over. Tues-Wed.
Top 8 play quarters and semis. Bottom 3 play round robin. Thurs.
5-8 playoffs on Thurs. Medal games on Friday.


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: Chris L on September 07, 2009, 06:29:54 PM
I like the 2 pools of 6 and 9 or 10 games over the 5 days is good. Am I right in saying that if you are in the bottom pool of 4 then you cannot make the pre-semis but can finish as high as 7? That seems fair unless there is some really dodgy seeding going on. Thanks Simmo. 


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: Stafman on September 07, 2009, 10:17:10 PM
Am I right in saying that if you are in the bottom pool of 4 then you cannot make the pre-semis but can finish as high as 7?

It looks to me someone who finished 9th or 10th (still in bottom pool) can make it as high as 5th, by winning every game from pre-semi. Assuming the losing teams from the 3-6 pre-semi play the winners from the 7-10 pre semi. No problem there especially as seeding seems to be 1/4 history, 1/4 educated, then half the number of spanners in a sidchrome toolkit to get the result.

Anyway, what i am saying is it doesn't really matter. If you finish in top 6, then it looks like you can make the final (fair enough). If you make the top 10, it looks like you can make it to 5th if you play well in the playoff games and if not, then i'll see you at the bar.



Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: matt.h on September 08, 2009, 10:18:13 PM
Finally to all those teams that complain about how much they have to pay to play AUG have a think about us who before even being able to pay for player registration are up for and average of $700 in flights

AUG in Perth next year!


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: Jangles on September 08, 2009, 11:16:33 PM
Nick, can you please email me a list of your players and the highest level of ultimate they have played in the last 12-18 months (Worlds, NZ Nats, etc).
Done. Basics: 3 worlds players, another 6 who played in the semis at our Nationals in April, 5 more who won our Uni Games and a couple of Newbies. Should do ok.

If it's any consolation (it's not, but hear me out), the Div2 draw will separate into a top 6 and bottom 5 on Tuesday. I fully believe that the fight for medals between NZ, AU/USA, CSU, QUT, UNSW and whoever the 6th team is (Vic probably) will actually be a pretty tight comp.
Choice, well that sounds more fun.
We do have one positive in that we'll know noone over there so every game will be different. Gets boring playing the same teams/players all the time.

QUT should offer a decent game. we have a small squad but got a few internationals this year. Led by our only just legal virgin captain Rhys the team should fire up. Ill admit we can't do any worse than last year.


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: simmo on September 08, 2009, 11:29:39 PM
Am I right in saying that if you are in the bottom pool of 4 then you cannot make the pre-semis but can finish as high as 7?

It looks to me someone who finished 9th or 10th (still in bottom pool) can make it as high as 5th, by winning every game from pre-semi.
Spot on.

What's holding up me sending the draw out is that the field layout and timeslots are yet to be set in stone. They seem to have been changing every week. I don't think it's going to be 8:30/10:30/12:30/2:30 because they were imposed on us by Albert Park. Ideally it'll be 9:30/11:30/1:30/3:30 but we'll have to wait and see.


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: ash_5 on September 10, 2009, 01:48:56 AM
yeah AUGs in Perth!!

Finally to all those teams that complain about how much they have to pay to play AUG have a think about us who before even being able to pay for player registration are up for and average of $700 in flights

AUG in Perth next year!


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: PiersTruter on September 11, 2009, 12:06:49 AM
Pissy, just pull out the “oh well maybe AUG isn’t the place for this competition anymore” line. They know how much money they make out of this sport that uses practically no equipment and no referees. They also know that we’re the biggest sport there (at least we were at one stage is this still the case?). If we can’t be treated as a sport that has unique needs and considerations, then maybe we should go somewhere that will. This being a complete bluff of course as everyone knows the only way we get fresh blood in this sport is through the lure of uni-games-poon.

I am personally completely opposed to the two divisions in ultimate at AUGs. I will be talking to the AFDA Board about communicating our issues with the concept to Australian University Sport. Nobody wants it and it is impossible to administer because of the turnover of players in uni teams. A top3 team can become a wooden spoon team in only 12 months.


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: Chris L on September 15, 2009, 08:39:43 PM
Quote
What's holding up me sending the draw out is that the field layout and timeslots are yet to be set in stone. They seem to have been changing every week. I don't think it's going to be 8:30/10:30/12:30/2:30 because they were imposed on us by Albert Park. Ideally it'll be 9:30/11:30/1:30/3:30 but we'll have to wait and see.

Any chance you can release the seeding and initial pools? Your blog suggested that has all been finalised.


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: moroney on September 15, 2009, 10:09:01 PM
Quote
Any chance you can release the seeding and initial pools? Your blog suggested that has all been finalised.

Wow Chris, calm down! The term "Ulti Nerd" comes to mind!


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: matt.h on September 19, 2009, 05:15:37 AM
Quote
What's holding up me sending the draw out is that the field layout and timeslots are yet to be set in stone. They seem to have been changing every week. I don't think it's going to be 8:30/10:30/12:30/2:30 because they were imposed on us by Albert Park. Ideally it'll be 9:30/11:30/1:30/3:30 but we'll have to wait and see.

Any chance you can release the seeding and initial pools? Your blog suggested that has all been finalised.

Div.1
A1   Flinders
A2   Sydney
A3   Melbourne
A4   Macquarie
A5   UWA
A6   Monash
A7   Newcastle
A8   UTS
A9   ANU
A10   Ballarat
A11   GU
A12   UQ


Div.2
G1   Wollongong
G2   QUT
G3   UNSW
G4   Vic Uni
G5   Aust College P.E
G6   ACU
G7   Uni of New England
G8   UWS
G9   CSU
G10   Vic Uni Wellington
G11   Adel-UniSa


Still a draft but email went out to captains today


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: Stafman on September 19, 2009, 07:48:01 AM
Div.1
A1   Flinders
A2   Sydney
A3   Melbourne
A4   Macquarie
A5   UWA
A6   Monash
A7   Newcastle
A8   UTS
A9   ANU
A10   Ballarat
A11   GU
A12   UQ


Div.2
G1   Wollongong
G2   QUT
G3   UNSW
G4   Vic Uni
G5   Aust College P.E
G6   ACU
G7   Uni of New England
G8   UWS
G9   CSU
G10   Vic Uni Wellington
G11   Adel-UniSa


Still a draft but email went out to captains today

Pity the teams that get UQ as the "12th" seed in their pool...


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: el_joshie on September 19, 2009, 09:28:53 AM
the seedings are fucked for now


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: biskit on September 20, 2009, 06:19:46 AM
Pools look pretty reasonable really. Each pool has a pretty clear 'top 4', plus 2 teams which might cause an upset somewhere. The second pool is just unfortunate that UQ is coming in at 12th seed rather than 'higher up' which might have been more realistic, I don't think it messes things up too badly. The seedings are messed up, but I don't think it really matters after seeing the draw...


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: simmo on September 20, 2009, 09:56:48 AM
I changed the make up of the pools after the seeding was done to even them out a bit. That being said, one is definitely stronger than the other.


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: Chris L on September 20, 2009, 06:10:40 PM
Quote
one is definitely stronger than the other

Yeah pool 1 has the EUG, SUG and WUG champs while pool 2 only has the NUG champs.


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: Stafman on September 20, 2009, 07:57:44 PM
Any chance of seeing the pools and/or draw?

Only 7 days to go.


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: Chris L on September 20, 2009, 08:15:06 PM
draft draw was emailed to the captains. Currently the pools are

1- Flinders, Melbourne, UWA, Newcastle, ANU, Griffith
2- Sydney, Macquarie, Monash, UTS, Ballarat, UQ


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: matt.h on September 20, 2009, 09:27:33 PM
Any chance of seeing the pools and/or draw?

Only 7 days to go.

Draft v3 (https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0ArrQAw6XpPi7dFhIb1c3dlFDQmRrSEJ6UDl6NTUtT0E&hl=en_GB=)


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: NickyD on September 21, 2009, 06:32:12 PM
Quote
one is definitely stronger than the other

Yeah pool 1 has the EUG, SUG and WUG champs while pool 2 only has the NUG champs.

i would rather be in pool 1 to be honest.


Title: Re: AUG: Divisions, draw and seeding talk
Post by: moroney on September 21, 2009, 07:41:06 PM
Quote
Yeah pool 1 has the EUG, SUG and WUG champs while pool 2 only has the NUG champs.

Well put.

Quote
i would rather be in pool 1 to be honest.

You kind of missed the boat on that one champ.

Not long now....


Title: Post AUG's Divisions and Number of games
Post by: Megzz on October 04, 2009, 10:49:53 PM
So these are my thoughts about the divisions...

It was sweet to have all competitive games, being in div1. but there are some things about it that just don't seem right or fair and on balance i am opposed to the two division system...

U of Vic Wellington (New Zealand) should clearly have been in division 1 and they were a potential semi-finalist, though it is hard to judge a team not playing against their own calibre... I would have liked to play them and find out though! and they are unlikely to come in future after that debacle.

There weren't enough games. I understand there was some complaints in the past, but seriously, two days of two games and two of one game?? what a joke. we played a three day tourney over 5 days. something more like... 3,2,3,2,1 would have been more appropriate... especially with the larger roster! Even the most hardcore party people got more than enough sleep!!

AUS seedings are completely mad and basing it on the previous year is a joke. UQ is not the only team that hasn't been every year... and we all know that would have been ridiculous. New Zealand will never go to Perth because it is way to far for them and punishing them for it has only resulted in denying ourselves the opportunity to play a strong team now and in the future. Plus there is a cycle as people graduate as we all know that can send a gold medal team to last place in a year. It is impossible.
 
A couple of extra seeding games aren't going to kill anyone, they will allow the unique culture of our sport to continue, the flux of people to be balanced out and more competitive teams will still get the same number of high level games. If the number of teams is a problem, then there will need to be some kind of qualification process... preferably one that doesn't involve everyone having to pay an obscene amount of money... possibly an actual IV tournament but not organised by the AUS.   




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