UltiTalk.Com

General => Ulti Talk => Topic started by: Lex on January 22, 2008, 09:41:35 AM



Title: Layout protection
Post by: Lex on January 22, 2008, 09:41:35 AM
G'day all.

I'm in Australia and have a chance at playing in the Aussie junior team at worlds. If I get in I'm pretty sure that I will be laying a lot :P When I do it now of course I get the classic injures: Elbows, knees and hip...
But I think that I will be doing it too much for my own good so I was wondering what protection is there? I'm getting sweat bands or some sort of padding (when the time comes I will decide) for my elbows, my knees are normally fine just tiny scrapes nothing that bad.
But my hip is probably the worst re-offenders.
1 lay: Its alright just scraped I'll be fine
2 lays: Starting to get a bit sore and bloody
3 lays: Um, can someone patch me up? I think I can see bone...
(Of course this is in the worst case of crappy layouts) but you get my point.

Anyway I'm not really sure what I can use to protect my hip... if there is nothing there is of course the option of just putting some tape over it put I'd rather not pull it off at the end of every day for 7 days.
Cheers.

-Alex


Title: Re: Layout protection
Post by: Robbie on January 22, 2008, 05:46:02 PM
...Get Better


Title: Re: Layout protection
Post by: rjhberg on January 22, 2008, 06:59:13 PM
I know that Mike Neild started wearing 2 shirts, 1 that was tucked in to protect him self from scrapes.

But what would he know about laying out??


Title: Re: Layout protection
Post by: Joe - Barefoot on January 22, 2008, 07:43:08 PM
i know the way you layout is often spontaneous and spur of the moment. but i think the damage your are doing, perhaps more related to your hip could be minimised by altering the way you layout. scratches on your elbows, forearms and knees are inevitable though, i think.

i remember reading somewhere, some experienced players input in to 'how to layout and reduce injuries', but i can't seem to find it.

i also think you need to be careful when using 'protective' gear as its impact on some areas, e.g. knees and elbows, can sometimes cause more serious injuries than just scrapes and cuts.

just my 2 cents.


Title: Re: Layout protection
Post by: Chris on January 22, 2008, 09:11:31 PM
I wouldn't get any padding like knee pads or elbow pads or anything, because that will probably just slow you down, and if you are slow around a feild you won't get any lays anyway, not to mention elbow pads will probably effect your throws.

Refining your layout technique is the biggest thing you can do. I was lucky enough to learn to dive in indoor volleyball where landing on anything other than your chest is exceedingly painful, laying out on grass was definitely a pleasant change. So ideally you want to be landing on solely your chest. Of course because ultimate is a multi directional sport sometimes awkward layouts are going to happen, but those ones are rarely the ones where rip skin off because you don't normally have a lot of momentum.

So far the best investment I have made in regards to layout protection for my hips, is one of those sleeveless skins undershirts - http://www.skins.net/au/en/Products/BioAcceleration_Technology/sport/sleeveless_top - though I opted for the cheaper nike one. I tuck them into my jocks or bike pants and that way they cover my hips and torso. Alternatively I think just some good old strapping tape over your hips would also help prevent 80% of grazes.

I have never had any trouble with skinning my knees when it came to layouts because when you focus on landing on your chest the momentum should keep your knees of the ground. In general if your knees are smacking the ground when you layout you probably have a technique issue and the last thing you want is such an import joint like the knees hitting the ground hard. I know lots of people that still drop their knees when they semi-layout because they like to break their fall with something other than their torso, but it is really bad technique and asking for trouble down the road.

As for your elbows and arm, I remember Brett Matzuka invented the "arm sock" where he had ripped his elbows open so many times he needed a way to let them heal but still play. The arm sock is basically where he got any sock and cut the closed end off and then just slid the sock up his arm and over his throwing elbow. I modified the same principle and went and bought about a metres worth of that light compression bandage stuff from the chemist, and just cut that. You really only need it for your catching hand because you'll rarely make a layout bid with your non preferred catching hand.

With all this said I think by far the biggest factor in layout protection is simply playing on good fields and I'm quietly confident that the fields over in Vancouver will be top notch.



Title: Re: Layout protection
Post by: Lex on January 22, 2008, 09:27:21 PM
Thanks guys.
Refining your layout technique is the biggest thing you can do.

Yeah, at least 70% of the time I am fine but there was a period where I couldn't do any for a while and my form went slightly off again with the reaching for the disc and body slightly turning in that direction...

Yeah as far as the knees go I haven't had any mayor grazes with them yet, just some dirt etc...

Elbows: Yeah, I will probably end up going to the tape anyway... Or at least another top underneath.

With all this said I think by far the biggest factor in layout protection is simply playing on good fields and I'm quietly confident that the fields over in Vancouver will be top notch.
Oh, Indeed. There's nothing like sliding across a nice green field.
They better be ;) The ones in Melbourne for training camp were horrific to land on. Dry and hard with lots of dirt... Mmmm.
Cheers all. Anymore suggestions are still encouraged...

-Alex

ps. Robbie, I want to see a few from you in March...


Title: Re: Layout protection
Post by: bwhite55 on January 22, 2008, 11:06:39 PM
you could be a man and not worry about it :-P

i'm jk, i've only been playin for a little bit so i'm still intimidated by the layout.  its freakin sweet to see people do, and i'm jealous, but when you are 240 lbs, you hit the ground hard.


Title: Re: Layout protection
Post by: Lex on January 22, 2008, 11:24:05 PM
Haha, yeah there always is the option of the bottle of man-up...

Thats one of the great things about layouts...
They screw with receivers and handlers if they know you can do it... and think you will!

I've only been playing for around 8 months now and I reckon layouts are great fun! Don't be intimated by doing them, do them right and you will be fine. But watch out for anyone who does :P

-Alex


Title: Re: Layout protection
Post by: bwhite55 on January 22, 2008, 11:36:33 PM
i don't mind if i take a hit and go down playin football, or when i was gettin thrown when i used to do judo, but for some reason i can't get over the psyche of layin out.


Title: Re: Layout protection
Post by: Lex on January 23, 2008, 12:21:59 AM
Haha, you will do it once because that was just a moment for it...
You won't care after that.
Happy landings :D

-Alex


Title: Re: Layout protection
Post by: Joe - Barefoot on January 23, 2008, 12:26:51 AM
i don't mind if i take a hit and go down playin football, or when i was gettin thrown when i used to do judo, but for some reason i can't get over the psyche of layin out.

For all the hesitation you feeling now, the absolute ecstacy of a full-length layout D makes it all worthwhile. It doesn't only look good, it feels good too. The adrenalin eases the short-term pain.


Title: Re: Layout protection
Post by: FarmerJohn on January 23, 2008, 09:40:55 AM
If you think receivers are the only ones who layout, I'd have you think again, thanks! I'm a handler, and I lay out. :D Also look at Al Don, Brett Matzuka, who are handler extraordinaires but lay out like crazy. I'm sure there are others I'm not thinking of.

I have used variations of the arm sock with good success on my elbows. I'd suggest having one for each arm though. I've done an equal number of left or right-handed layout grabs depending on which side the disc is coming from.

The layout adrenalin is sweet too.


Title: Re: Layout protection
Post by: Stepan on January 23, 2008, 12:03:59 PM
I agree the the adrenalin kills the pain. Problem is when the blood is involved as you are not allowed to be on the field while bleeding. As there is almost nothing which can cover the open wound and remain on for more than one point I sometimes use an elbow pad (you can actually see it on my icon). I can recomend it as it stops further destroing of the elbow and covers well the wound so you can keep playing without scaring everybody around.

On a hard surface the hip is an issue and I don't think any briliant technique can help on a concrete hard grass. So far I did not find any reliable protection so at some stage I only layout on the green parts;) I might go for some of the skin-kind undershirt later though.


Title: Re: Layout protection
Post by: bwhite55 on January 23, 2008, 01:59:19 PM
lol, i'm a handler but soon i'll be able to play deep more because i'm workin on my speed.  i have had opportunities to lay out, but never think about it when it happens and its always those "I coulda done it" moments.  i guess you just have to get used to it.  and a couple of handlers i play with lay out all the time, its normally to recover from an overthrow usually made by me :)


Title: Re: Layout protection
Post by: Lex on January 23, 2008, 08:34:55 PM
Haha, I have a handler on my team that lays out more than anything... He's a member on this site "Cupcake".
Lol, we never said it's only receivers that layout :P Anyway, yes I do agree with the others. If you get the D or catch the disc you feel nothing... But pride and excitement.

Yeah, same here. There really isn't much you can do with hard / crap grounds with your hip, so hopefully as we stated above... That the fields at worlds are in good form 8) hopefully I get to go and slide on them : )

Btw, I layout and I still have those "I could of done it" moments anyway... It's just all the mind. Mental set.
I've just started coming round to it. I mean sure I could layout before but it had to be a floater going away from me so I had time to decide if I should or not, but its getting to the point where theres no thinking involved :) You don't need to push yourself... Unless your going to worlds :D

-Alex


Title: Re: Layout protection
Post by: bwhite55 on January 23, 2008, 09:10:31 PM
where's the worlds gonna be @ next year, i wanna go  :o


Title: Re: Layout protection
Post by: Lex on January 23, 2008, 09:22:58 PM
Next year?
I have no idea, don't think they have thought that far ahead...

This year (August 2 - 9) it's in Vancouver, Canada.
FYI - World Juniors is every two years.

-Alex


Title: Re: Layout protection
Post by: Chris on January 23, 2008, 09:34:39 PM
i don't mind if i take a hit and go down playin football, or when i was gettin thrown when i used to do judo, but for some reason i can't get over the psyche of layin out.
I think a lot of the time you can just tell the people who will layout versus people that won't, and I think it comes down to how competitive they are. Whether they are willing to risk injury to get the D or catch the disc.

That said a lot of it is just "fear" of injury through lack of experience laying out properly. In many cases laying out properly actually prevents injury and grazes. I know when I first started I would sometimes layout and sometime slid on my side. Sliding on my side would be the option I took when I was bailing out of a layout but still needed to get low to catch a disc because it was a lot less scary than going face first and landing on my chest, yet I had so many more injuries that resulted from sliding on my side than I did laying out.

So if you aren't laying out it is probably due to the fact you don't believe the game is valuable enough or you don't have enough experience laying out so you still have some fears of doing it. If this is the case maybe a little layout practice is in order next time there is a bit of rain around to soften the fields a little more.


Also look at Al Don, Brett Matzuka, who are handler extraordinaires but lay out like crazy.
That is only because I employ my "go fetch" throw when they are playing dump for me.

Btw, I layout and I still have those "I could of done it" moments anyway... It's just all the mind. Mental set.
I've just started coming round to it. I mean sure I could layout before but it had to be a floater going away from me so I had time to decide if I should or not, but its getting to the point where theres no thinking involved :) You don't need to push yourself... Unless your going to worlds :D
For me I switch in and out of layout mode. If I'm about to play an important game where I really need to perform and play a super aggressive game where my defender gets nothing and I catch everything I normally take a moment before the game to pyche myself up a bit and run it through my head how I will be laying out for everything. So that when it comes to the actual game my brain is already thinking layout, rather than trying to size the disc up and whether it is safe or not to layout.

Obviously for less important games which I feel we will win easily or like in local league games I tend to switch off for the sake of self preservation and because the outcome isn't as important. Though the big down side of switching on and off is often your mood can very much dictate whether you are going to be playing hard on the field or in some case where you don't recognise that the game would be important or close and so you won't do enough to switch on before hand or during the game and as such you may play poorly. 

Quote
where's the worlds gonna be @ next year, i wanna go
World Championship is in Vancouver in August 2008 and 2009 World Games is in Kaohsiung, but World Games is mixed and there is a limit to how many players can go.


Title: Re: Layout protection
Post by: bwhite55 on January 23, 2008, 09:39:56 PM
its not that i'm not competitive, or don't value the game, i love ulti and am very competitive, i've just never practiced laying out, cept i've done it in the sand @ the beach, which was fun, but i just need practice i guess.  awww, i guess i'll just stick to small tourneys till i actually get to go to something big.  i'm pumped about High Tide this year.


Title: Re: Layout protection
Post by: FarmerJohn on January 24, 2008, 03:44:02 PM
Chris, I saw your throws in the AUG videos and WBUC videos, they look like they've gotten a lot better. Nice work.

Personally, I always have my "go fetch" throws on when I'm playing with Brett, hahaha. Just make it sail forever and he'll get there. If only I was that speedy.


I also have the layout on/off switch. I don't really layout in low-level games. But in big games (WUCC) I definitely layout more often. I'm working on how to layout all the time, but it's not quite there yet.


Title: Re: Layout protection
Post by: Chris on January 24, 2008, 11:17:15 PM
Chris, I saw your throws in the AUG videos and WBUC videos, they look like they've gotten a lot better. Nice work.
Are you implying they used to be bad?


Quote
I'm working on how to layout all the time, but it's not quite there yet.
I honestly think there is a time and place for laying out and doing it all the time can be hazardous, I know Matzuka would disagree but for those of us that are prone to breaking choosing a selecte few games/tournaments where you are playing "body on the line" ultimate is more appropriate, IMHO.


Title: Re: Layout protection
Post by: Tiger on January 25, 2008, 04:28:19 AM
I honestly think there is a time and place for laying out and doing it all the time can be hazardous

I agree. If you know that you're going to get the disc if you lay out, then lay out. If not, don't just lay out so the sideline applauds for you - and people do this! - because any player worth his salt is going to punish you for being on the ground instead of holding the force.

T.


Title: Re: Layout protection
Post by: Lex on January 25, 2008, 05:00:59 AM
Am I one of those people, Tiger?

-Alex


Title: Re: Layout protection
Post by: cupcake on January 25, 2008, 06:47:17 AM
i dont think many players layout just for the applause of the sideline. or if they dont have a bid on the disc. a player will generally lay with all intention of getting the d/catch. even if you have the slightest chance of getting the d by bidding, the presence of a flying body zooming past an opposing player is enough for them to loose focus and drop the disc. which if this happens its no means a pointless bid.

with the mindset thing, i dont like the layout switch on/off thing. i find that if i do this i simply wont lay when i need to, cos i wont be used to it/ill syke myself out due to lack of practice. so i guess it just stays on. i think this might be help by the fact that im yound and dont really break. but this will probably catch up to quickly.

in regards to laying out on different surfaces, i actually prefer to cop a graze or two for a hardish, dry grass type surface. your momentum causes you to slide anlong the grass, which i find help avoid some impact injuries you can get when momentum is stopped suddenly by lush, 'sticky' grass. if you get that.

lex, man up, or just whinge about the grazes like i tend to do =)

cupcake


Title: Re: Layout protection
Post by: Lex on January 25, 2008, 07:42:59 AM
Hahaha Cupcake...

Yes, Cupcake.
As I said to someone I probably won't end up doing anything about it lol. Although they can sometimes get pretty bad the grazes. But the bottle of Man-Up is an option :D

Yeah, I rather the mindset of just having "Layout mode" on all the time.

-Alex


Title: Re: Layout protection
Post by: bwhite55 on January 25, 2008, 09:22:00 AM
after you get done w/ that bottle of Man-Up, toss it over here for me :-P.  i've decided that i'm gonna start asking some of the guys to throw me some layout throws before/after/in between games.  i guess w/ any other skill it's a learned skill.


Title: Re: Layout protection
Post by: simmo on January 28, 2008, 09:46:18 AM
your momentum causes you to slide anlong the grass,
Not when you're 240lbs it doesn't. Whenever I lay out (we're talking maybe 5 times a year) I leave a me-shaped hole in the ground just like a Road Runner cartoon.


Title: Re: Layout protection
Post by: FarmerJohn on January 28, 2008, 02:03:04 PM
Quote from: Chris
Are you implying they used to be bad?
What! No way!

Are you coming to Kaimana?


I had a chance to layout yesterday. However, it was indoor practice on a basketball court. I would have done it outside, but definitely not on the hardcourt.


Title: Re: Layout protection
Post by: ntstuart on February 25, 2008, 06:30:46 PM
When I lay out I generally don't feel anything until after I'm done playing. What I would reccommend is to just keep playing and keep laying out, scrapes and bruises are going to happen no matter what you do, its like falling down on purpose. But getting the d or goal is always worth it.


Title: Re: Layout protection
Post by: Lex on March 02, 2008, 10:43:20 PM
When I lay out I generally don't feel anything until after I'm done playing. What I would reccommend is to just keep playing and keep laying out, scrapes and bruises are going to happen no matter what you do, its like falling down on purpose. But getting the d or goal is always worth it.

Haha, of course.
I never said it hurt right away, adrenaline takes care of that :P Although if you have to go to the blood bin it kinda starts there...

I've been doing it pretty well at tournies lately (form wise) so no injuries... Although I stuffed my shoulder at training haha, but nothing 2 days of rest cant cure.

-Alex

 


Title: Re: Layout protection
Post by: dsimpson12 on March 03, 2008, 08:34:09 PM
I don't like the on/off switch either, its part of the "give 110% every time" mentality. Besides in a tournament every game matters. A former teammate used to do something in warmups to get things going. Before every game he would make a point to layout in warmups, sometimes slowing down to create the distance needed for a layout. This accomplishes two things 1) gets you past the mental block of the layout and 2) psyches up the rest of the team for the game ahead.

That being said another former teammate injured himself in practice/warmups. Broke his wrist laying out in practice. Then his first tournament back he broke his other wrist warming up for the first game! Though he had terrible form; rolled his hands under to break his fall and wrists.

Take home messages, give your best every time, get psyched up, learn proper form.


Title: Re: Layout protection
Post by: Gabe on April 20, 2008, 03:26:47 PM
Accessories are one of my favorite things, and forearm shivers, made for playing football on turf fields, work great in ultimate. You don't want them with any padding, because as people said, they will mess with your throws. UnderArmour makes shivers which are just skin tight sleeves with come from your wrist up above your elbow. They don't move around, and spare your elbows the scraping of laying out on dry ground. http://www.underarmour.com/shop/mens/accessories/protective-gear/football/pid8000033-HeatGear-Forearm-Shiver/8000033-600 (http://www.underarmour.com/shop/mens/accessories/protective-gear/football/pid8000033-HeatGear-Forearm-Shiver/8000033-600)

I've never had any abrasion on my knees. Hips used to bother me, but wearing a skin tight layer beneath your jersey helps a lot. My elbows would be constantly chewed up before I found the shivers, however. Only downside is you get funny tan lines.


Title: Re: Layout protection
Post by: gref on April 20, 2008, 05:31:45 PM
Prrft, layout protection means you don'y get those sexy looking grazes that only other ultimate players find hot...


Title: Re: Layout protection
Post by: Chris on April 20, 2008, 10:00:56 PM
Prrft, layout protection means you don'y get those sexy looking grazes that only other ultimate players find hot...
Gref - I hear Amart Allsports have a new range of finger guards. You should invest in some for layout protection.

:D

*Note - for those that don't know Gref broke his finger laying out for a disc...!


Title: Re: Layout protection
Post by: FarmerJohn on April 25, 2008, 12:18:41 PM
Gosh, what are they teaching at UQ nowadays?! Brett's gone so they don't learn how to layout OR be obnoxious?!

My how times have changed. :D


Title: Re: Layout protection
Post by: Lex on April 27, 2008, 06:21:46 AM
After Nationals I am now very confused on if I need anything or not. Going ho into the mud has screwed my perception of landing on grass damn it... Until League anyway...

-Alex


Title: Re: Layout protection
Post by: Granty on June 24, 2008, 06:57:21 AM
3 Things:

1. Land and slide on your chest.   Play a bit of volleyball, those guys know how to layout proper, watch and copy.  Given that some fields are dry in Oz... perhaps you should practise in NZ for a bit.  I'm sure Vancouver will be just awesome.

2. I've seen some sports people wear skin tight leggings and long-sleve shirts. I'm sure under-armour or relevant sports manufacturers make these.  But they would probably make you a bit warmer, and slide heaps easier on the grass (ahem, i mean dirt in oz, hehe).

3. Played any soccer?  Have you noticed what the goalkeepers wear?  No i don't mean those gloves, but their SHIRTS have padding sewn into the elbows, and their SHORTS have padding sewn into the hip area... not sure the cost, but prob about AU$40 would get you a pair of those shorts?

I used to play cricket and got mega grazes on the elbows, hips and knees... but after playing ultimate, one of the first things i learnt was to lay-out proper... i don't know if that skill is in the ultimate books that are floating around, but it damn well should be!


Title: Re: Layout protection
Post by: rrudnic on July 07, 2008, 10:29:54 AM
wear under armor type shirts and compression shorts you tear a hole in them no biggie you go get a new one at wally world for like $8


Title: Re: Layout protection
Post by: Lex on July 08, 2008, 05:30:36 PM
Yeah, I'm starting to get back into the feel of things. Layouts are becoming more natural again not really thinking about it.
My shoulder is feeling good which means my form is fine, lol.

I will probably end up just using tape to cover any graze areas, but who knows.

-Alex


Title: Re: Layout protection
Post by: gref on July 13, 2008, 03:45:01 AM
Just don't worry about it. No tournament is long enough that you get too cut up, even if you are making bids all the time, unless you are playing on broken glass.


Title: Re: Layout protection
Post by: Lex on July 13, 2008, 06:48:02 AM
Haha. Yeah.
But we do play something like 13 games or something at worlds and judging on my performance at Youth nats I think im just going to have to tape up my hip. That should be about it. I can just wear a sweat band for my arm.

Just grazes. Nothing more. Nothing less.

-Alex


Title: Re: Layout protection
Post by: DaveR on July 13, 2008, 08:13:15 PM
suck it up lex...thats your answer :)


Title: Re: Layout protection
Post by: Tenk283 on July 21, 2008, 08:14:17 PM
Having seen you layout lex, your form is pretty good.

You keep your legs up and take the hit on your body rather than arms. So in this case, I agree with maple.

Quote from: Buttons
How bout a glass of cement and harden the fuck up.


(If you need clarification on this, just ask Buttons)

Anyway, I have never seen a layout graze that has stopped someone from playing. It would have to be one hell of a graze (ie, the type you get when you stack your pushie doing 30k's down a hill) to prevent most players from retaking the field. If you ever have to handle, Australia is certainly in the shit. So it shouldn't effect you too much. Unless you have problems regrazing the spot.


Title: Re: Layout protection
Post by: Lex on July 21, 2008, 11:43:51 PM
Yeah, from my orginal question it was due to the January camp for Juniors.
Worst ground ever. Well, not ever but it was pretty bad.

I lay'd a lot and as a result crap grounds my elbow was getting to the point of almost seeing bone.
Even ask Piers.

But since I've gotten back into the grove just before worlds I think that not much is needed. Just the tape so I can have a shower at the end of the day and not yell due to stinging ;)

-Alex


Title: Re: Layout protection
Post by: bullet_cale on August 28, 2008, 01:09:28 AM
I've learned from sliding in various forms in baseball over the years some tips that have worked well when laying out in ultimate.

If you realize you're going to land on your hip, try to get your lower thigh in line w/ your body (Knee can be bent, just keep hip and thigh in line). In that position the muscle isn't flexed/stretched in anyway, and provides a little bit of protection, and won't pull if you roll or slide awkwardly.

If you are going to land on your shoulder, keep your arm directly underneath your body, or straight over head. Pretty much for the same reason as before.

Hope these help.


Title: Re: Layout protection
Post by: gref on August 28, 2008, 11:01:06 PM
Accessories are one of my favorite things, and forearm shivers, made for playing football on turf fields, work great in ultimate. You don't want them with any padding, because as people said, they will mess with your throws. UnderArmour makes shivers which are just skin tight sleeves with come from your wrist up above your elbow. They don't move around, and spare your elbows the scraping of laying out on dry ground. http://www.underarmour.com/shop/mens/accessories/protective-gear/football/pid8000033-HeatGear-Forearm-Shiver/8000033-600 (http://www.underarmour.com/shop/mens/accessories/protective-gear/football/pid8000033-HeatGear-Forearm-Shiver/8000033-600)

I've never had any abrasion on my knees. Hips used to bother me, but wearing a skin tight layer beneath your jersey helps a lot. My elbows would be constantly chewed up before I found the shivers, however. Only downside is you get funny tan lines.

I'm starting to want to get those forearm shivers. The fields up here in Queensland at the moment are hard, dry and bumpy.

I've had the same two grazes on my elbows getting continuously regrazed for past couple of months.


Title: Re: Layout protection
Post by: ash_5 on September 05, 2008, 09:39:40 AM
ive found that even wearing skins (Compression) helps me with not getting any grazes on my hips, but i get alot on my elbows...well elbow really..more my right arm than my left, but i catch/D with my right hand if i have a choice...usually wear an arm band though and havent of late


SimplePortal 2.1.1