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Author Topic: UNI Games Tiering debate  (Read 61358 times)
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Jangles
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« on: April 30, 2007, 12:48:41 AM »

There is a Bit of noise out there regarding the possible spliting of the competition into 2.

Anyone have any ideas or opinions on ways to solve this issue post stuff here.
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simmo
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« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2007, 05:15:50 AM »

It's all speculation at the moment. Given that no qualification is needed, then ultimate is going to have a mob of teams falling over themselves to get to the Gold Coast. Let's assume that all clubs that are around this year (that I know of anyway) go to AUG - 26 teams...they would have to split into two divisions. But realistically there probably won't be 26. We could easily have 20 teams in the one division with a 4 and a 1/2 day tournament.

I suppose the big question is how would they divide the two divisions? Based on last year's AUG results - we'd probably end up seeing QUT dominate division 2.

And what about the even bigger question - has ultimate outgrown Uni Games? At 06, there were 17 ultimate teams. The next biggest sport was women's basketball with 11, with every other sport having only 7 or 8.


PS: the 26 clubs I was thinking about are: Mac, UQ, Melbourne, Newcastle, Sydney Uni, Adelaide Uni, ANU, Tassie, UNSW, Flinders, UWA, Monash, Murdoch, Ballarat, UniSA, QUT, Wollongong, CSU, UTS, UCan, UWS, ACU, Latrobe, Deakin, RMIT, James Cook
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littletom
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« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2007, 07:13:59 PM »

Well, we can look at the standing policy for what will happen if no one raises any objections.

1) AUGs ulti will be split
2) It will probably be the top 8 teams in the top tier
3) Determination of the top 8 would be linked to performance in the previous year's AUG

From what I have seen and spoken to people, there is little or no support in the Ulti community for that combination of policy.

While some sort of "splitting", whether it be into divisions or into pools after the first day and a half, maybe desirable, it has to be in a way that gives every ''team'' a chance at proving themselves for that year.

The above policy does not allow this for probably two reasons. The first being that the top tier is probably too small to let enough variety in the top competition and the second problem being that a current year team has no opportunity to prove itself and qualify for AUGs, it relies on possibly a totally different team, their uni team from last year to do that for them.

Teams like QUT and UCan should be able to have a venue to prove themselves for this years team and shouldn't be shackled with the problems of last year, partially a result of VSU in UCan's situation.

The possible solutions for this year are that we subjectively select top tier teams but run the risk of criticisms of bias or we run a single tier competition with some sort of split into top and bottom pools after the first pool of play.

A possible solution for next year would be to have all uni teams wanting to play AUGs in the top tier play a regional qualification, whether it be an ECC, LTCC or stand alone ulti competition and then figure out the allocation of bids to different regions based on results from this year. That would be a similiar fashion to which nationals qualification is conducted.

I think that getting any changes made to the format for AUGs this year will not be a problem of Ulti people disagreeing but instead it will depend on how much autonomy we have from AUS and whether or not they are willing to deal with us on our terms.

I would probably be a good idea for people to discuss these sorts of solutions with their team buddies and get a rough consensus on what they want, so that we can figure out Aussie uni ultimate's demands and have a united front as soon as possible.

-Tom Watson, general ANUDE admin bitch
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simmo
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« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2007, 09:19:01 PM »

Well said, Tom  Grin

I don't even have to talk to my teammates to know that they would be feverishly against that first plan. We didn't have our best team last year - we took a few key players, plus a bunch of others who were selected as a reward for coming to training all year. A few of our guns didn't come in favour of going to Worlds. We finished 14th last year, but this year we are planning to get top 10, possibly quarters.

The format (19 teams) they used in Brisbane worked quite well, if you ignore the 5-timeslots-and-4-fields problem. IIRC there were pools of 4/5, which then went into pools of 6 (bottom pool had 7). Top 8 went to quarters-semis-finals, 9-16 did the same and 17-19 played a round robin for placings. 10 games over 5 days. The 06 format was a bit crap with two pools, everyone plays once, then ranking games.

As I said before, Ballarat's view is that anything up to 20 teams shouldn't be split. Only if we get more than 20 should we consider it.
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Frank
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« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2007, 08:29:51 AM »

Given that no qualification is needed, then ultimate is going to have a mob of teams falling over themselves to get to the Gold Coast.

Is this true? Sorry I'm a bit out of the loop but is there no qualification to AUG this year???
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Chris
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« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2007, 10:30:32 AM »

I also heard teams will be able to compete in any of the challenges they choose rather than being confined to their region.

In regards to the splitting of the competition I'm also of the belief that if there are 20 or less teams each team should be "in the hunt" I mean the way uni ultimate is teams can drastically change from year to year. I mean I think QUT will be an example this year going form wooden spooners to potentially top 8, all because they will pick up 2 or 3 key players, and I mean the same applies for teams that go from the top to the bottom half of the draw - like UNSW.

At the same time if it did get above 20 teams I'd probably would lean towards a split competition with 12 or 16 being in the top pool and having some positions in the top pool (maybe top Cool being earnt by performance in the previous years with the remaiing 8 positions being earnt either via a regional bid/qualification system or some "subjectively selected" system, and I mean there probably is room for at least some "subjectively selected" wildcard entries because UQ didn't have a team in 2004, but finished 5th in 2005...
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simmo
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« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2007, 06:38:28 PM »

Given that no qualification is needed, then ultimate is going to have a mob of teams falling over themselves to get to the Gold Coast.

Is this true? Sorry I'm a bit out of the loop but is there no qualification to AUG this year???
Yeah. AUS have canned the SUG/EUG/NUG events because they weren't making any money or something because of VSU. However, Latrobe City paid something like $25k to have SUG in 2005, 2007 and 2009. Coffs Harbour had some sort of similar arrangement, but not for that much coin. So AUS have set up events to replace SUG/EUG/NUG to satisfy those who had a contract to host an event, and those events are no longer formal qualifiers for AUG.

Whether AUG actually happens in 2008 will be fairly dependent on the success of AUG this year in terms of participation, so I think that's another reason they've thrown open the floodgates.
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Jangles
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« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2007, 08:20:37 PM »

Here in lies the problem

Too many teams for one competition and not enough in certain areas such as QLD and WA for regionals. So what to do i think 20 teams would be easy to handle but since the gold coast is a desirable location for eastern and northern regions i can see i record amount of teams showing up. GREAT FOR ULTIMATE but a nightmare for the organisers. I think some of the responsibility should go on to the team managers shoulders to decide how competitive their team is. I know last year we were there for a bit of fun and drinking and the occasional throw of our drinking container. So if there had of been 2 divisons i would have nominated in the second. However we did not have a finalised line up til 2 weeks before when we lost 3 worlds players.

So do we make the sport more expensive for uni students and make them travel for a qualifying events or sort something else out.

with empty wore out pockets
Jangles
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thebozzman
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« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2007, 08:29:20 PM »

I can't believe peole are forgetting about CSU Bathurst... again...

From my experiences at EUG's, there were always 4-5 standout teams in the competition that would fight for those place and then there was a jump backwards from 6-to the end.

Can't talk about AUG's as this year IS/WAS going to be my only experience at AUG's.

If it'll only work with a certain amount of teams, possibly AFDA/UFNSW/UF(insert state here) should look putting into place a "qualifiers" of sort or use results from other tourneys to rank the teams.

E.G there is one place for a CSU team at AUG's, then we organise a CSU Dubbo VS CSU Bathurst qualifier for that spot? But if there were to happen a TD needs to be appointed ASAP so they can start trawling through the crap and put these things into place.

Even though you can put it on the team managers to decide whether or not their team will be competitive, alot of teams WANT to go to AUG's for the simple fact it's a week on the Gold Coast.
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Gong Deano
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« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2007, 05:10:57 AM »

If it'll only work with a certain amount of teams, possibly AFDA/UFNSW/UF(insert state here) should look putting into place a "qualifiers" of sort or use results from other tourneys to rank the teams.

Unigames has always been unique in that it is not an AFDA sanctioned event. I personally would like to rock up to unigames with no pretournaments or training, knowing that my team still had a shot at the title (true Wollongong style).
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Eels
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« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2007, 08:48:48 AM »


The tiering idea is balls for several reasons you guys have already mentioned.

I think that the first problem is the method through which they would have to tier the teams. They would base the split on either 1 - the results from the previous AUG or; 2 - the results from that years regional qualifiers.

With AUG, the results from the previous years AUG are not a good benchmark for ranking. Team should not be punished for previous bad results, and thus be denied a chance at winning AUG. I mean it is my understanding that should the tiering come in last year UniMelb would've been stuck in the bottom half based on the 2005 AUG results. Yet, they were one of the 3 standout teams at AUG '06 winning brone and along with Macquarie and UQ were in a league of thier own. The turnover of players at uni level ultimate is so great that teams can improve or be substantially weaker from year to year. A team picking up 2 or 3 key players can be a medal chance when in previous years they lack depth.

Likewise, the results from regionals are not a good indication of the strength of a team. WA regionals are a joke, there are only 2 teams who ever show up, although having said that ECU sent down a Mixed Touch Rugby team to qualifiers. (They even scored one point!) Murdoch would qualify this year as WA1 beating us at regionals. Although, this was largely due to a strong bunch of Nth American imports who will not be attending AUG. Murdochs AUG team will be considerably weaker than UWA judging by current lists. But should the system be tiered we would get jammed in the bottom pool although we are likely to be a much stronger team and possibly a top 10 finisher this year.

I also think that the tiering system would decrease the level of participation and quality at AUG. Who would want to go knowing that they are not in the running for AUG Champion Uni? Sure, some teams travel just to party and have fun, but essentially all they are playing for is a 9/10th playoff - who really cares? Most teams playing off for 9/10th on the last day rock up blind drunk/hungover from the night before. We played off for 11th last year, and we could bearly walk. The 'social' pool will become nothing but an pissfest, and unless im much mistaken the AUG Organisers aren't for that. I also think that many teams wont even bother making the trip to AUG if they are stuck in the bottom pool. I know that UWA and Murdoch wouldnt bother trekking across the Nullabor to play for 10th place. We would probably enter Mixed Nats as WA2 behind Sublime. Im pretty sure that many other teams would be in the same position and thus participation and attendance would suffer at AUG.

The tiering system is unworkable. Should AUG grow to over 20 teams then something needs to be done - but tiering in this method is not the answer.

Theres my rant - sorry its so long but I really think this is a shit idea.

Eels (UWA Ulti Club Vice Pres)
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Drag
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« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2007, 08:54:00 AM »

Personally i think that even though it is an extra cost it is good to have the LCC, as new teams such as my team, RMIT, need the practice of real games and tournaments. I know that we cant get gold but i would not want to take my team to the AUG's and have only played teams like Monash, Deakin, Ballarat, etc. who are willing to play friendly games for the fun of it, and thanks to those teams as it all helps. but lets face it if we go to the AUG's with only that experience then when we play melbourne uni, QUT, etc. we will be in for a shock, not to say that we would contemplate winning but they have had years on most of my players and with there selection capabilities could make good teams just for LCC and a separate for AUG's. and good for them, but this game is about spirit, and to give spirit you have to give a fighting chance. P.S i will be happy to score 5 goals against Melbourne, who cares about the game, they can win that. The teams we have beeen training with couldnt even score 5 against them, so that would be a win in my books.

See you ALL at the LCC and AUG

all in th spirit of things

D
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simmo
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« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2007, 08:55:42 AM »

I'll put this out there...

Is it time for Ultimate to pull out of the Uni Games...erm...thing?

I'm guessing it was included back in the day as a means of developing the sport. But now I think it's outgrown Uni Games. I mean, this year we're assuming there will be about 20 teams, plus the ones that might not even make it there.

I reckon the people at AUS have a huge laugh every year at silly ultimate players forking out $100+ in player fees, when probably $30 of that actually gets spent on us.
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Drag
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« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2007, 10:51:12 PM »

Yeah but that kind of thing takes some serious organising, and would have to be run at the same time any way as students couldnt come during the school semester, they could only make it during their holiday period. It would be good to see it separate, mainly because it has outgrown the games, but i could not seriously see that happening for a few years, long after us normal students have finished, though the students for life will still be trying their hearts out at 80 years old, lol now that would be a site..

D
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Jangles
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« Reply #14 on: May 06, 2007, 11:41:21 PM »

I have to say i think frisbee doesnt have much of a future at uni games if they continue the way they are going. Althogh it is good to go away as a full uni team not just frisbee and socialise with people who dont pull for a living. (pun intended) ill just sit and see what happens over the next few years then someone may do something.
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