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Author Topic: Ultimate newbie questions  (Read 5086 times)
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vanmartin
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« on: February 16, 2010, 05:31:38 AM »

Hi folks, I'm very new to Ultimate and I hope you won't mind if I use this thread to ask some really basic questions from time to time. Anyone else who would like to use this thread for newbie questions is also more than welcome.

A friend and myself have recently started organising local pick-up games. Ultimate is not a very well-known sport in our area so there's nobody around that can help us answer some of the questions asked by the players. The most common question to date is the following: Is there a minimum distance the disc should travel during a pull?

Reading the latest WFDF 2009 rules (especially section 7), no minimum distance is specified. What is to stop the defensive team from launching a very short pull which drops to the ground only a few meters away from their own end zone and thus they're able to gain possession on their own pull before the offensive team reach the disc?

Or am I missing something in the rules? 7.8 reads "No player on the defensive team may touch the disc after a pull until a member of the
offensive team contacts the disc or the disc contacts the ground."

I eagerly await your answers!  Smiley
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evanhp
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« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2010, 09:19:43 AM »

well fortunately, Ultimate is not like American football. you can not just pick up the disc after a pull and assume possession.
you would not want to pull a very short distance, because the other team would then be advancing the disc towards you and would only have a few meters to go for the score.

thats why there is no minimum distance, it would not be smart to do that. the best thing to do is pull towards their endzone, resulting in a longer pull.

hope this helps.
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wwwake
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« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2010, 09:57:26 AM »

Or am I missing something in the rules? 7.8 reads "No player on the defensive team may touch the disc after a pull until a member of the offensive team contacts the disc or the disc contacts the ground."

I think the phrase in question means the pulling team is not allowed to interact with the disk until at least one of the conditions are met, but this rule does not allow them to do so. 

The standard "pull" is done by the team that just scored (defense) throwing (pulling) from the endzone they just scored in to the other team (offense) who is lined up at the opposite endzone.  In my experience, a pulled disc that falls to the ground is considered dead and the pulling team (defense) is not allowed to touch it until the offense picks it up, performs a "Check" (see section 10) and makes it live.
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jrc21
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« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2010, 11:04:22 AM »

this is the wording in the UPA rules in 8.8 "If a player on the receiving team touches the pull before it hits the ground and the disc then hits the
ground, it is considered a dropped disc (XII.B) and results in a turnover." i think this is the only circumstance where the pulling team could gain possesion of the disc right after the pull
« Last Edit: February 16, 2010, 11:12:45 AM by jrc21 » Logged
Seppo
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« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2010, 12:31:20 PM »

The keyword of WFDF Rule 7.8 is the word "touch".  The defensive team can touch the disc after it hits the ground (so as to stop it's movement), but it cannot take possession of the disc after they touch it.  Imagine a situation where the pull were to hit the ground and then begin to roll back towards the defensive team's endzone.  If a member of the defensive team were to reach the rolling disc first, they could "touch" the disc in such a way that stopped it's movement.  The offense would then take possession of the disc from that point.

Hope that makes sense vanmartin.  And welcome to UltiTalk.  Cool

- Seppo #22
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vanmartin
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« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2010, 02:48:37 AM »

Thanks for all the answers - that does make it clearer! Especially Seppo's explanation of the word 'touch'. I wish that rule 7.8 could have been worded more clearly or explicitly. Perhaps it's very rarely misinterpreted when you have more experienced players mentoring you in the game but when you're starting from scratch that sentence is really confusing.  Smiley
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Pepper
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« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2010, 04:45:48 PM »

Here is a great resource on the 2009 WFDF rules. These are slightly different from UPA rules, but I think for beginning players it doesn't matter much (but I am not an expert on UPA rules, we play WFDF here): http://ultimaterules.co.cc/wfdfquiz2009.xls

Good luck with the pickups!
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vanmartin
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« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2010, 03:54:38 AM »

Here is a great resource on the 2009 WFDF rules. These are slightly different from UPA rules, but I think for beginning players it doesn't matter much (but I am not an expert on UPA rules, we play WFDF here): http://ultimaterules.co.cc/wfdfquiz2009.xls

Good luck with the pickups!

Thanks! We also follow the WFDF rules so this is perfect!

Off-topic: The 'Meijers' surname is very common in South Africa but is spelt 'Meyer' over here.
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Pepper
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« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2010, 07:03:02 AM »

That is probably because there are a lot of people with Dutch ancestors in South-Africa. The spelling is the American style spelling, the Dutch language doesn't use the Y that often. Instead, we tend to use IJ, but it has the same sound when pronounced on most cases. Anyway, so much for history and Dutch lessons ... go play Ultimate Smiley
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vanmartin
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« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2010, 06:15:07 AM »

Back again with another newbie question or possibly set of questions. We're having trouble interpreting some of the rules, especially when it comes to fouls vs. incidental contact.

Let's start with this WFDF (2009) rule:
12.11. All players have the right to the space immediately above them. An opponent may not obstruct a player from occupying this space.

1. How is this rule applied when two players from opposing teams contest for the disc in the air?
2. Would either player have preference based on jumping first or arriving at a set position first?
3. An offensive player is looking up, eyes on the disc, readying to jump up or in the process of starting a jump towards the disc above him. Could a defensive player come up from behind the offensive player, jump into the air and catch the disc above the offensive player's head or hands?

It's pretty difficult to describe some of the scenarios we've encountered and I suspect I'm not the only one that would have trouble doing this so if anyone wants to link to video to explain a scenario or rule that would probably be really helpful.
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Pepper
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« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2010, 08:23:48 AM »

1) I would say this doesn't apply. When 2 people make a move for the disc at the same time and contact occurs, you can either both call a foul or both let it go. There is no preference to offense or defence in this case.

2) It depends. If contact could have been avoided by the player who moved to the space last (e.g. by not jumping), it is a foul. If contact could not be avoided then 1) applies.

3) This is allowed as long as the catch doesn't obstruct the other player from going for the disc. I am assuming there is no contact involved.
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vanmartin
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« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2010, 05:58:52 AM »

1) I would say this doesn't apply. When 2 people make a move for the disc at the same time and contact occurs, you can either both call a foul or both let it go. There is no preference to offense or defence in this case.

2) It depends. If contact could have been avoided by the player who moved to the space last (e.g. by not jumping), it is a foul. If contact could not be avoided then 1) applies.

3) This is allowed as long as the catch doesn't obstruct the other player from going for the disc. I am assuming there is no contact involved.

Thanks for you reply! I was waiting and hoping a few more people would comment but let's discuss your reply.

1. Why does this not apply?
2. Makes sense
3. And if contact is involved?
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toonsoon
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« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2010, 12:15:46 PM »

As far as UPA rules go, some contact will always occur despite this being a non-contact sport.  All contacts between players need to be judged on whether said contact would have altered the play.  If you are chasing a disc and your defender (who is behind you) steps on you heel, causing you fall, that is a foul.  If you are cutting and bump into your defender while trying to get around them, that is boarderline.  Had you knocked them over, a fool should be called.  However, if both of you remain standing and the disc was thrown up the otherside of the field, probably not a foul.

Additionally, it is partially a personal preference.  Some players enjoy a more physical game and will be less likely to call fouls because of contact.  Others will call a foul if you brush against the hair on their forearms.  And there are always the less-spirited folks, who will begin a game not calling much and get more and more critial of any infraction...especially if there have been questionable calls from the other team or if they are losing by a large margin.
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ksharp
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« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2010, 02:15:51 PM »

Thanks for you reply! I was waiting and hoping a few more people would comment but let's discuss your reply.

1. Why does this not apply?
2. Makes sense
3. And if contact is involved?

1. I would suggest that it does apply in some situations but not in others. Generally speaking, enforcement of ‘principle of verticality’ rules tend to hinge on whether or not the disc was in your ‘airspace’ and whether or not the contact was incidental.  Making calls on these rules, perhaps more than others, is complicated and rather subjective.

When two opponents compete for a disc in the air, a certain amount of contact is usually unavoidable.  Shoulders, arms, legs, hips, and hands often bump when two people get up for a disc, but it doesn’t affect the outcome of the play.  That is incidental contact, and a certain amount of that must be tolerated, because most of the time that contact between two opponents is equally attributable to each.

If you are certain that the disc was exclusively in your ‘airspace’ and that your ability to make the catch was impeded by contact from an opponent, it is a foul.  Your decision here depends on the nature of the contact – was it incidental or not.

If the disc was not exclusively in your ‘airspace’, then the principle of verticality no longer applies, and there is typically going to be contact more frequently because both teams have the right to make a play on the disc.  When two opponents chase down a disc, paths will intersect!  Deciding how much contact is tolerable between opponents is a judgment call, typically coming from experience. 

But always call a foul if:

a)   The non-incidental contact was initiated by your opponent.
b)   The play was reckless or dangerous – don’t let yourself be put at risk by playing against goons.

2. In my opinion:

a) if a player is in a stationary position, he/she has the right to the airspace.
b) if the players are both moving toward an unoccupied space, the player who arrives there first has the right to the airspace (unless that play is reckless or dangerous).
c) if both players arrive at the same time, then both of them have the right to the airspace (unless that play is reckless or dangerous) and it looks like there is going to be a train wreck (but the contact is no more attributable to one than the other so be wary about calling fouls here).

Think of it like this: did your opponent contact you (foul on him), did you contact your opponent (foul on you), or did you and your opponent contact each other (foul on nobody)?

3.  If there is no contact, there is no foul - you've been "skied".  If only incidental contact results (contact that did not affect the play such as gentle bumping after the catch) then there is no foul.  If non-incidental contact results (play was affected, i.e., you were physically prevented from making a play) call a foul on your opponent.
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Pepper
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« Reply #14 on: April 22, 2010, 04:19:47 AM »

ksharp has a good explanation. The problem with rules is that the usual answer is 'it depends'. Which is why you can contest a call.

The best thing to do is to accept the fact that there is some ambiguity in the ruleset, just as it is with other sports. In ultimate we don't have a ref to settle things, so the best thing to do is discuss the situation calmly (tough if you're playing a hard game with high stakes of course).

I try to always keep in mind whether the situation is fair. Meaning I try to self-reflect on my action, then determine whether I agree with the foul-call or not. Try to never immediately contest a foul call, even if it is 'blatantly obvious' Smiley
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