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Author Topic: 4-person cup?  (Read 18324 times)
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canis216
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« on: April 16, 2010, 06:39:05 PM »

Hey all, I'm semi-coaching a team almost entirely composed of rookies. They're looking to play their first tournament in June (Utah Summer Games) and I'm trying to find whatever strategic edge I can muster up so they can at least frustrate the more experienced teams. Thus we come to the 4-man cup. I don't if anybody in Utah (aside from maybe Golden Spike) has faced it. Problem is I've never faced it either, so while it seems like it would be a nice curveball to throw at our opponents, I'm not sure how it's best practictioners go about running it (I should really review some footage of Fury).

So, who here has run the 4-person cup? How'd you run it? What were it's strengths and weaknesses? How would you implement it for a team of young, inexperienced dudes and their grizzled player-coach?

Paz,

Mike "Bear Killer" L.
Ex-University of Montana
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jrc21
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« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2010, 08:46:53 PM »

by 4 person cup do you mean something like the 1-3-3 zone with a rabbit/chase, the 3 person wall and then wings and a short deep?
the key to this zone is having the wall and rabbit work together as a unit, because if they get out of synch then the offense can easily swing the disc and look for an easy pass down, as 4 players on d are trying to catch up with the play. i guess the greatest strength is preventing the long downfield pass, because youll have to throw thru the wall, and the biggest weakness is that youre commiting so many players to contain to disc, that youre leaving the rest of the field thin, its easy to break this zone with a hammer or a scoober that you can drop in behind the wall, as the mids cant play underneath the cutters unless youre confident that your rabbit and wall wont get beat on a swing and huck.
this is just my verbal diarrhea while on an exam study break, ill try and be more clear tomorrow. hope it helps a little.
heres a link with a flash animation, only thing im not sure if i would force middle on the line.
http://www.ultimatehandbook.com/blog/strategy/zone-defence/

justin   
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canis216
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« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2010, 11:16:52 PM »

I'm thinking more of what Miranda Roth is describing at The Huddle (here: http://www.the-huddle.org/issues/7/the-four-person-cup/). She makes a distinction between a 4-person cup (4-2-1, I think?) and the 1-3-3. That said, discussing the 1-3-3 is certainly useful; I suspect the defenses have somewhat similar vulnerabilities--i.e., the hammer over the top, scoob over the cup. And like I said, I need to re-watch some of that footage from the 2008 women's final between Fury and Riot. I think a little bit of 4-person cup was played in that one, though I might be hallucinating.
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JCoWslinger
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« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2010, 11:38:50 AM »

Basically, the cup is trying to force a trap. They don't want to allow the around break throw, the around to the open side (forcing the trap on the line) is what the cup wants..  Alot of kids get confused with this because they feel like they should be guarding the handler, not where the dump is going to come.  The cup has to work as a unit and the corners are very important too.  The corners have to know when to pick up the man, and then when to drop the man to cutoff the upline pass.  The deepdeep has to be rangy and be able to sky for the huck. 

 
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rrudnic
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« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2010, 08:33:59 AM »

Jcow could answer if Clemson still runs it, but we ran a 4 man cup exclusively in Zone when I was there. Its just like a 3 man cup except the mid-mid/short deep or whatever else you may call him moves forward into the cup. It expands the area the cup is defending. I feel like it allows you to get a trap sooner because its easier to prevent the break throw with the extra man. If you get the trap on the line you have the extra guy helping. The mid has to be very conscious of the other team crashing the cup. Guys crashing and throwing over the top are the biggest weakness, crashing because there is more space inside the cup and throws over the top because with only 2 wings you have to leave 1/3 of the field pretty much ungaurded. I'll post 2 images I threw together real quick to compare with the disc in middle and trapped.
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rrudnic
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« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2010, 08:35:33 AM »

Click image for larger version, 3 man cup on the left 4 man cup on the right. The reddish pink area is where the force should be allowing you to throw with relative ease, notice with the 4 man cup the space is smaller and has less upfield space its more just straight across. The green space is the area inside the cup someone can crash to, in the 4 man cup it is larger. That could just be because of the way we ran it that could be always I really don't know. With the extra defender the mark can shift slightly more toward the backfield preventing the breakside dump/around throw while still cutting off the upfield area you want. In the 3 man cup if the mark shifts that way you will either need the other 2 guys to shift creating more throwing space on the force side or they can stay in the same place which will open the hole through the cup between the mark and top.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2010, 08:42:25 AM by rrudnic » Logged
rrudnic
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« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2010, 08:44:50 AM »

Again click for larger image, 3 man on the left 4 man on the right. The reddish area this time is where the player with the disc can reasonably consider throwing over the cup. In the 3 man cup you have the mid who can play one of the poppers allowing the wing to sit between the 2 offensive players on the far side of the field. This makes the space the disc could be thrown to smaller because that man can defend some of that area and have a chance to make a play. In the 4 man cup the mid is now in the cup and the wing has to choose either come further into the middle of the field and prevent the short over the cup throw or stay back similar to where he was in the 3 man cup leaving the player in the middle of the field open. We normally chose to try and prevent the short throw which as you can see by the reddish area gives you a big area to throw to across the field. If its windy throwing a big blade or hammer across the field is a risky enough throw to make it worth giving that option.

Sorry if the diagrams aren't that great, hope that comparison helps you see the difference in the 2 zones as I see them. As for how to learn it or practice it simply put we just ran it and got a lot of yelling from older guys who knew it better. One thing I do to teach zone to the HS is to put 3 handlers on the field and put the cup on and then just have them swing back and forth so the cup learns to move together it also ingrains the idea of swinging the disc in the handlers. Then you can add in poppers and some other D and then full O and D.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2010, 09:00:23 AM by rrudnic » Logged
canis216
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« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2010, 03:22:22 PM »

Thanks for the pictures, rrudnic. The help is much appreciated.
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Pepper
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« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2010, 04:24:57 AM »

rrudnic's pictures are spot on. The difficulty for the marker with the 4 man cup is that he has to stand behind the thrower, to stop the straight-back dump. This dump is followed by a swing and then a pass to the open wing usually, so it is very dangerous.

The other thing to note is that the deep can stand a little bit more in than the picture shows. This allows him to make a play for the disc if it is a floaty throw in the middle of the field.
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rrudnic
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« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2010, 09:15:17 AM »

I'm a firm believer that the deep should NEVER put himself in a position that allows an offense player to get behind him, which is why I didn't show the deep any further forward.
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Kyle
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« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2010, 08:35:21 AM »

Canis, I think there is a lot of confusing information in the replies.  Hopefully, I can add information and reduce confusion:

The adjustment between a 3 person and 4 person cup is taking away the short deep and putting another person in the cup
- What you give up - the four person cup is more susceptible to throws over the top (where the short deep had been).  The four person cup is also more susceptible to aggressive handling (handlers popping into the cup from the backfield) which may open up throws through the cup.
- What you gain - the four person cup should be able to take away a much larger range of lateral throws and make it harder to effectively swing the disc
- When to play it - against teams without strong over the top throws (hammers, scoobers) or in very windy situations

One clarification: Most 4-person cups are played as a force middle zone.  Some of the descriptions above indicate that it is a trap zone.  That is not something that I would recommend.  If the offense can move the disc to the break side they will have a significant mismatch against the defense as you'll only have two defenders (the off-side wing and the deep-deep) downfield of the disc.  In addition, if the game you are playing is more of a "field position" rather than a "possession" game (not as consistent offenses or really poor weather) a trap zone often allows easy hucks that, even when not completed, can gain a lot of yards.  At low levels, I recommend shying away from trap zones as it's important to get "short fields" for your offense to work with. 

Suggested alternative - box and one.  Instead of taking your short deep and adding them to the cup, have that player guard the opposing teams most dangerous handler man-to-man.  This allows you to break up the opposing offenses rhythm and force players into positions that they are not as comfortable with.  Particularly if the top handler is much better than the 2nd and 3rd best throwers on the other team this can be devastating.  Keep the cup force middle and focus on containing (not allowing downfield throws up).  If the opposing team can only dump-swing without gaining yards - eventually you'll get a turn and have not too many yards to cover to score.   
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rrudnic
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« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2010, 04:13:19 PM »

I wasn't particularly saying that 4 man cup is a trap zone just basically illustrating what it looks like if you are trapping when running it, mostly so you can see the difference in the 3 and 4 man cups. However if you know the other team doesnt have the throws over the cup, its very windy, or the disc ends up particularly close to a sideline I would definitely trap with it and it can be very effective that way. Its also quite easy with some practice to have the mid drop back making it a 3 man cup when you trap and come back into the cup if the disc gets around.
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