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Author Topic: Youth Nats  (Read 213489 times)
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Lex
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« Reply #300 on: July 02, 2008, 05:01:11 AM »

Yes, Timill.
Yes I am.

-Alex
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Quote from: Simon Talbot
Hammer from sash to monkey man. 16-11. It's all over. Just quietly, i'm smashed! Yeah chilly!
Yeah, I'd have to agree with Lex.
simmo
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« Reply #301 on: July 02, 2008, 08:44:07 AM »

where are those seedings from? the only reason i can establish those ranks are Lex's personal ranking of teams and members in them. how come lex has got rankings??
They look pretty good to me.

Well, according to dear Lisi. No Zones.  Grin So there goes crushing the noobie teams with a clam or pommy. (Check out the youth nats site for the exact modified rules. Including 1yd space instead of 1 disc space)
Oh god do you still use those rules? Surely we're past the point of bothering with them, since the only tournament they get used at is Youth Nats.
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Tiger
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« Reply #302 on: July 02, 2008, 08:23:56 PM »

It is fairly ridiculous. Even the G-stanes team wasn't playing by those rules at NSW Gala Day.
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mattdowle
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« Reply #303 on: July 02, 2008, 09:04:21 PM »

From my understanding those rules should be used for any youth event / tournament, including school gala days etc. Ultimate is played in quite a lot of schools and these are the rules which help offence at such a basic level (i.e. inexperienced players). I know you are going to argue youth nationals is not inexperienced players and I agree - but it helps to have consistency at the youth level (my opinion) so people can make the jump from schools to other tournaments more easily.
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Lex
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« Reply #304 on: July 03, 2008, 04:02:42 AM »

Well the final draw is up...

http://youthnats08.thunder08.com/draw/

-Alex
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Quote from: Simon Talbot
Hammer from sash to monkey man. 16-11. It's all over. Just quietly, i'm smashed! Yeah chilly!
Yeah, I'd have to agree with Lex.
simmo
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« Reply #305 on: July 03, 2008, 06:17:48 AM »

The game at 3:00 on Saturday on Field 1...wtf?
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Tenk283
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« Reply #306 on: July 03, 2008, 06:55:28 AM »

From my understanding those rules should be used for any youth event / tournament, including school gala days etc. Ultimate is played in quite a lot of schools and these are the rules which help offence at such a basic level (i.e. inexperienced players). I know you are going to argue youth nationals is not inexperienced players and I agree - but it helps to have consistency at the youth level (my opinion) so people can make the jump from schools to other tournaments more easily.

 Cry But, but, but.

There can't be that many inexperienced players? There are a few worlds players. Quite alot that have played at open nationals level. Surely that experience could make up for the players that haven't really played competitively before?

All you need is four decent players to successfully beat a zone. 3 handlers and one cutter (not even that sometimes.... 2 handlers and a popper works well). As for the yd space.... It kinda makes a force pointless, any decent thrower could break all day long without a worry in the world. Not to mention the ease people could huck with.

Should be interesting to say the least.
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Tiger
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« Reply #307 on: July 03, 2008, 06:59:13 AM »

The game at 3:00 on Saturday on Field 1...wtf?

Lisi thought it would be a good idea to see, after all the tournament's play (save the final) has been done, to pit the lowest-ranked boys against the top-ranked girls.
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Lex
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« Reply #308 on: July 03, 2008, 08:12:05 AM »

Cry But, but, but.

There can't be that many inexperienced players? There are a few worlds players. Quite alot that have played at open nationals level. Surely that experience could make up for the players that haven't really played competitively before?

Although I agree, the point of youth nats is to get new, inexperienced players involved. We don't want to confuse them with all of this zoney stuff. Hell, it took me at least 5 -6 months to understand what the hell pommy was.
But then again, I'm not the smartest when it comes to tactics. All I am normally taught is to Run and catch.

Also, the subbing rule is quite a funny one. At any time, as long as its in the box. I remember chasing someone in the finals last year and following them all the way to the side line. Next thing I would know is I'm following some other guy. Annoying, but handy.

-Alex
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Lay-out
Lay-well.
Quote from: Simon Talbot
Hammer from sash to monkey man. 16-11. It's all over. Just quietly, i'm smashed! Yeah chilly!
Yeah, I'd have to agree with Lex.
JMc
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« Reply #309 on: July 03, 2008, 08:32:41 AM »

There can't be that many inexperienced players? There are a few worlds players. Quite alot that have played at open nationals level. Surely that experience could make up for the players that haven't really played competitively before?

Not that many inexperienced players? Perhaps there should have been more effort put into recruiting newer players from the various schools playing frisbee at some level (and kudos to those who have done so).

All you need is four decent players to successfully beat a zone.

And that is exactly the point.
The rule is not there because of a belief that juniors won't be able to beat it and offence will collapse. Two good reasons: 1) teams that have gone to the effort of recruiting new players would be destroyed by an effective zone; 2) a zone offence primarily keeps the disc in the strongest players' hands, so none of the newer players are getting any disc.


As Matt has said, the rules are designed to aid offence, making for somewhat more flowing Ultimate. They are also in place to maximise the ability of newer, less experienced players to be involved with the game (rather than being monstered by a puppy or singled out for special intimidation on the mark).
I imagine that the goal is to create growth in size first by increasing opportunities for participation, and then once the Youth Ultimate scene has grown sufficiently, these rules would be removed at competitive youth tournaments.


My personal opinion is that I'm not a big fan of the rules in Worlds years. I like the idea of the "fun/participation year, competitive year" cycle in odd and even years, such that Worlds years are played under full WFDF rules with no concessions, and non-Worlds years are significantly more focussed on getting people involved.
Guess my situation was probably a little different though.

My 2c.
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simmo
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« Reply #310 on: July 03, 2008, 09:00:34 AM »

Not that many inexperienced players? Perhaps there should have been more effort put into recruiting newer players from the various schools playing frisbee at some level (and kudos to those who have done so).
I get the feeling we've backed ourselves into a corner a bit, particularly in Victoria (may be the case in other states as well). I've had a look at the 6 guys and 3 girls teams, and it seems as though teams have been assembled to go and win Youth Nats. This gets all the kids with Nats experience on a small number of teams, with very little room for newbies.

Where do we want Youth Nats to be in a few years - youth club teams (eg: HOSY, In-tents) or high school based teams (eg: Killara, Chatswood)? An idea might be to have some sort of incentive for senior players who can coach a high school team to Youth Nats. Credit from a sponsor (Discraft, Gaia) or waiving Nats player fees?

My personal opinion is that I'm not a big fan of the rules in Worlds years. I like the idea of the "fun/participation year, competitive year" cycle in odd and even years, such that Worlds years are played under full WFDF rules with no concessions, and non-Worlds years are significantly more focussed on getting people involved.
I probably should elaborated a bit on my earlier moaning, but that's what I was thinking.
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Tiger
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« Reply #311 on: July 03, 2008, 10:40:35 AM »

The cost of the tournament is prohibitive - even for Sydneysiders! Don't even mention the kids who have to fly here. Gosh.

There is very little prestige associated with competing at Youth Nationals (yet!). I know this because I have won it, and nobody really cared.

I think these two factors, ironically, gimp the development aspect of Youth Nationals. As Simmo has pointed out, teams from out of state tend towards the 'send one good team that has a shot of winning' approach - if they're going to pay for those flights they want to bring back some bling. And fair enough. And when it reaches a situation like it has this year (more so with the women than the men) where everyone has played ultimate before, the youth rules could, presumably, be scrapped.

I mean there's plenty of ways to think about kick-starting the development aspect of youth ultimate. Change the location region to region (for simplicity's sake, between NSW and SA) each year like we do for regular nationals. Bring the focus back to high schools- currently a merit team is selected at each NSW Gala Day that does nothing but play dress ups for a photo. Do something with that merit team: kids (and their parents who are probably paying for them) would be more willing to travel out of state for a weekend if they're representing their state.

My $2.
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« Reply #312 on: July 03, 2008, 11:27:43 AM »

from attempts at recruiting players as tiger said the main issue was simply the cost for semi-serious people. for someone who hasn't played league before and is a junior they arent too keen on a $70 weekend. i know at least 5 people from people ive spoken to who dropped out because of cost, kids are dirt poor.

for someone serious sure they're in (all the people you see registered) but to really try and get teams together JUST for youth nats its really hard to get those 'inexperienced' players to put down an airfare and tournament entry just to play frisbee.

but its still giong to be an awesome fun weekend...

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ulty_arnie
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« Reply #313 on: July 03, 2008, 12:14:10 PM »

For those of you having a hard time with price, there are a few things you can use to get people in, and think about.

First off, this is a national competition.  At UQ, we charged around $60 for the local league.  That is a beginner league.  You tell them they have a chance to compete against the best from around the country, have a chance to be national champion, get cool swag (hats, disc, etc.) to remember the event, and a great social event, suddenly $70 is cheap for anyone.  You have to sell it with some enthusiasm and excitement.  It is a great event that is well planned.  1-day tournaments in Queensland cost around $25, and that is just frisbee and lunch.  Take into consideration Youth Nats is 2 days, and you would expect at least a $50 price tag.  You get a disc and hat, and now it seems you are getting more than $70 worth.  You have to be rational, even some of us older folks are poor students, so don't give me that lame excuse (in oh so much debt at the moment, ask simon wood, he can tell ya).

Second, with all that being said, we are barely breaking even with this event.  I have been organizing it with Lisi, and can tell you, we have spent at least 5-6 hours revamping budgets.  If you want more for your money, get more players.  Another option, register early enough that we can actually plan appropriately.  You guys should be happy with everything you get for that price.  I know when we took our budget to AFDA saying we are running it at a slight loss, can you help?  Their response was simple, cut out the swag (ie hats).  the Organizers have done everything possible to make this affordable and fun, without sacrificing anything for the players. 

I know every city wants to act like they are on top of it and such, but have heard Melbourne has 6 youth open teams playing at the moment.  Only 1 Melbourne open team is attending.  It is your responsibilities as youth to solve problems or ask for help.  I was told that they couldn't get transport, or didn't want to pay $200 in flights.  We were told this of course when it was too late.  Lisi and I spent about 10 minutes and solved it multiple ways.  Obvious solution was to have teams hire minibuses and drive their teams up.  Train was also possible and so forth.  It is easy to make an excuse or find ways to not do something (too expensive, busy, blah), the Americans have done it for years with frisbee (what the heck is an asterisks win anyways?).  Put some thought in and solve the problem, don't just focus on the negative.

All in all, this is going to be a great event with the largest turn out in the history of the event.  Those of you lucky enough to attend, go up to Lisi and thank her wholeheartedly for her hard work and the time she put in.  Wouldn't be happening at all without her.  Lets learn something from this year and recruit more people next year, makes event cheaper and makes for better competition.  Then.......Everyone Wins!   
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« Reply #314 on: July 03, 2008, 10:30:06 PM »

First off, this is a national competition.  At UQ, we charged around $60 for the local league.  That is a beginner league.  You tell them they have a chance to compete against the best from around the country, have a chance to be national champion, get cool swag (hats, disc, etc.) to remember the event, and a great social event, suddenly $70 is cheap for anyone.  You have to sell it with some enthusiasm and excitement.  It is a great event that is well planned.  1-day tournaments in Queensland cost around $25, and that is just frisbee and lunch.  Take into consideration Youth Nats is 2 days, and you would expect at least a $50 price tag.  You get a disc and hat, and now it seems you are getting more than $70 worth.  You have to be rational, even some of us older folks are poor students, so don't give me that lame excuse (in oh so much debt at the moment, ask simon wood, he can tell ya).
Brett...$270 dollars is a LOT of money to a 16 year old. Especially when the average wage for that age is around 8 or 9 dollars an hour. More often than not they're asking their parents for that money, and I don't imagine too many parents being keen on throwing money at sport that involves chasing a bit of plastic around the park, no matter how prestigious we find it to be. My parents still think it's a silly "sport", and my sister and I have been playing for 5 years.

I like Tiger's thoughts - maybe we should be holding State Championships and have the recruitment/development focus on them, with state rep teams selected to play Nationals. I think it'd be a lot easier to get some funding from schools (for State Championships) and from state FDAs (for rep teams) to make it easier for the kids to attend.
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