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Poll
Question: What's the best format for Youth Nats?
3:3
4:3

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Author Topic: Youth Nats 3:3 or 4:3  (Read 60831 times)
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Robbie
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« Reply #30 on: June 24, 2007, 10:07:01 AM »

I'm actualy looking forward to playing kangamoose more than any other team at nats, dunno why but yeah, it'd be good to see how much you guys have improved.
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« Reply #31 on: June 24, 2007, 10:11:39 AM »

hahah thanks! but i dont know how good ill end up being...unless i find a wonder cure for my leg

ahh well 2weeks of rest
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littletom
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« Reply #32 on: June 24, 2007, 06:32:27 PM »

Hey guys

I am the managing the the ACT juniors team.

I asked Matty for a clarification of what rules we will be using and he said that the *only* change from normal rules is the 3:3 split.

For the time being (and certainly for the u18 division) all the other rules about dropped pulls, marking distances, etc are not going to be played at youth nats.

However, you all forget....at the start of *any* match of ultimate, the captains can agree on changes to *any* rules. So, if captains agree, change to 4:3. I know the ACT team has lots of players, at least 8 guys and 6 girls, so we will be wanting to play 4:3 where possible.

Any having you guys every played 6 person zone before? Better start practising!

And what do you think about the age restriction of making it only open to players that are eligible to play for the next worlds? The way I see it, this is youth nationals and its an event in its own right, so why not let actual juniors (anyone u19) play? Aren't we trying to get *more* teams and players to come to youth nats? Its not like we have *too* many players and teams! Why does everything have to revolve around the Australia juniors team?!!? Can't we see other youth players as worth developing as well?

-Tom
« Last Edit: June 24, 2007, 06:37:14 PM by littletom » Logged
Robbie
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« Reply #33 on: June 24, 2007, 06:37:18 PM »

Good point, as long as each team has a captain, those higher ups can't do a thing!!! Grin
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« Reply #34 on: June 24, 2007, 08:27:51 PM »

The biggest problem with going to 4:3 is not actually reducing the game time for girls. Adding an extra boy can frequently reduce the roles that girls play in the team, meaning that they're simply less involved as the boys take over.
Johnny's nailed it. If you ever watch a game between two new university teams, count the number of times you see the girls get the disc from a first-option pass. I guarantee you won't need to get your second hand out to keep count.

Ellie/Cat/others, feel free to disagree, but in my experience girls in general (there's always exceptions) don't pick up the game at the same rate as guys, so you really need to get them fully involved in game situations from early on. Having 4 guys on the field will mean that the girls get "left behind" in improving. It came up very briefly at the board conference over the weekend, but there doesn't seem to be a distinct advantage of having 4:3 instead of 3:3.

Recruiting girls is definately more tricky than recruiting boys. Try hitting up girls who are on the edge of selection in other sports like netball, tennis and hockey. You're not going to get the gun players from these sports, but the second-string players might like to try and become first-string players in another sport. And don't say that you're asking them because you "need more girls". Be a bit more specific - "we need someone with pace/height/mad d-skillz."

Also - ask everyone! It's amazing some of the unlikely sources you find players. Try work, family and even parties (I suppose that's the under-18 equivalent of "down the pub"  Grin)
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« Reply #35 on: June 24, 2007, 09:01:57 PM »

However, you all forget....at the start of *any* match of ultimate, the captains can agree on changes to *any* rules. So, if captains agree, change to 4:3. I know the ACT team has lots of players, at least 8 guys and 6 girls, so we will be wanting to play 4:3 where possible.

the 2002 rules state:
404.01 Rule Variations: Any of these rules may be changed by mutual agreement of the captains of the two teams, subject to the approval of the tournament director.

The 2007 rules state:
2.1. A variation of the basic structure may be used to accommodate special competitions, number of players, age of players and available space.

So under either rules, there doesn't seem to be a means for captains to ignore TDs. As always, don't believe the messenger - read the rules yourself.

I understand the aim of a 3:3 split is to give girls more involvement on the field, and to give more touches per player, and to make the offense easier (in junior development, helping the O is probably more productive than helping the D). Additionally, 3:3 gives incentives to guys to recruit more girls, and more teams to form, since there is less playing time for guys per team.

Does the ultimate community want to aim for equal girl and guy participation? then this is one means to work towards this - obviously a contentious one.

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« Reply #36 on: June 25, 2007, 02:41:55 AM »

Tiger and I were talking about this today, in terms of getting girls, its been an absolute bitch, and we've probably had about 20 girls come and leave till we got the last 8, because of how hard it was to get people to stay and be interested in the sport, even now we only have 8 through a stupid stroke of luck, and now we have 2 too many than what we wanted.

To turn around and find out that we needed something like only 2 girls a team because other teams are short it'd be pretty annoying considering how much effort its taken (particularly on tigers behalf) of chasing up enough girls to play seriously and I think the effort of finding those girls shouldn't be penalised by having to play fewer girls on the field.

but i guess thast not the issue.
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timill
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« Reply #37 on: June 25, 2007, 03:05:19 AM »

the 2002 rules state:
404.01 Rule Variations: Any of these rules may be changed by mutual agreement of the captains of the two teams, subject to the approval of the tournament director.

The 2007 rules state:
2.1. A variation of the basic structure may be used to accommodate special competitions, number of players, age of players and available space.

So under either rules, there doesn't seem to be a means for captains to ignore TDs. As always, don't believe the messenger - read the rules yourself.


O-Shep comes in and smashes everyone with one post!

Deadly, even when injured.
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Robbie
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« Reply #38 on: June 25, 2007, 03:21:42 AM »

That's what SHE said...
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littletom
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« Reply #39 on: June 25, 2007, 09:09:00 AM »

Well I don't necessarily think that the TDs are themselves sold on the 3:3 split, so its still up for debate...

The ACT team will have, as I said before, more girls and more boys than we need, so we are only interested in getting more players on the field. It sucks that other teams don't have the subs for both genders.

-Tom
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« Reply #40 on: June 25, 2007, 09:51:36 AM »

littletom: well you should have pushed for more players and split them into 2 teams. that would have been the ultimate solution.

Kablamo (Dave): i thought more of your team would be on this forum, speaking with you guys on saturday night i was under the impression that you guys talk on MSN alot, you should be pushing them into this forum as well.

As for girls, this forum is like frisbee in general, not as many girls as guys, so for the girls; speak up and be heard, for the guys; GET MORE GIRLS...

D
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Kablamo
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« Reply #41 on: June 25, 2007, 09:54:51 AM »

ehh i tried....only AL made it for one post and Cat has posted abit..the others...i dont think they can be bothered
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« Reply #42 on: June 25, 2007, 04:06:05 PM »

Hey All...

This seems like a pretty good debate.  I added a poll so that everyone can vote for the format they like the most.

The poll can be found at the top of this page.

Cheers!

- Seppo  Wink
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« Reply #43 on: June 26, 2007, 02:18:21 AM »

Realistically, if we do go 4:3, will it actually stay 4:3, or just become 5:2 as opposed to it becoming 4:2 which I think most captains would agree on?
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« Reply #44 on: June 26, 2007, 03:15:14 AM »

Quote from: Matt Dowle
Thanks for your concerns regarding the gender split - the afda talked about it briefly at the board meeting this weekend. You should be receiving an email from Pottsy regarding the decision and justification shortly.

We await the email...
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