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Poll
Question: What's the best format for Youth Nats?
3:3
4:3

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Author Topic: Youth Nats 3:3 or 4:3  (Read 60835 times)
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littletom
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« Reply #45 on: June 26, 2007, 04:35:12 AM »

Drag: I am not a junior and I have about a thousand other things to do in my life at the moment than chase up players to make a second juniors team from the ACT. The team is effectively only happening because there is one junior that is organising a slew of players. If the arbitary ages restrictions were removed we'd easily have enough for a second team and my motivation would increase, as it would dovetail with my main frisbee admin responsiblity at the moment, helping out with the ANU team. The ACT is especially volunteer poor and I have been majorly involved with the admin of everything here in the past few years that isn't the league and one other tournament. Please don't insult me by just saying I should have just got more players, I barely have enough time to give to the current juniors players as it is.

We have been lucky and have managed to get enough girls but I can't offer any advice to anyone else about getting more girls, as I know that its not because we have been more skilled at recruiting them. Perhaps it is because the major team organiser *is* a girl and so is better able to recruit girls but that is something which has come about by chance, luckily for us.
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Drag
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« Reply #46 on: June 26, 2007, 08:42:43 AM »

littletom was not meaning to insult you, just stating the obvious, and just like most other people organising teams i know how very difficult it can be, especially when they drop out last second. Good luck at youth nats (thats assuming you will be going as an adult, supervisor/coach/organiser)
« Last Edit: June 26, 2007, 08:54:32 AM by Drag » Logged

Reflection is noblest. Imitation is easiest. Experience is bitterest.
littletom
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« Reply #47 on: June 26, 2007, 10:34:48 AM »

yeah sorry, I'll take off my arsehole hat Sad And yes, I'll be there supporting the kiddies...

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matt.h
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« Reply #48 on: June 26, 2007, 06:24:48 PM »

For those not on the afda-youth and/or aus-youth lists

Quote
Hi all,

I've discussed with our Director of Development, Lisi Jarrott, and
nationals tournament director Matt Dowle, and read some of the ulti-talk
thread on this topic.

We appreciate the efforts that almost everyone has put in to recruiting
more girls into the tournament, and I see that some teams have been more
successful than others, but that generally most teams are lacking in women.

So, we would like to announce that the gender ratio will be changing to
4 men: 2 women.

I understand that this is late and may mean that those teams who have
recruited well will have too many women, but as the overall registration
for the tournament is close to 2:1, we hope that some small team
reorganisation can happen at this late stage to accommodate.

In particular, we hope that the team Panic in the Disc can maybe recruit
a couple more boys (from the pickup list??!!) and split into two. In
any case, 16 players may be a lot for a 6-a-side tournament, so this
seems like a sensible direction.

This decision does not mean that the AFDA will be pursuing an uneven
gender split in the long term, but we are seeking the best solution
given the immediate situation.

Other issues (many of the discussions have covered some of this):

6-a-side
Restricting to 3:3 was partially intended to prevent boys from
dominating play. We hope with 4:2 that teams will still be very
inclusive of their girls.
6-a-side is also meant to minimise the temptation to play zone or junk
defences. There is plenty of variety in man-on-man defences, and you'll
get much more athletic fulfilment by working on your man defences. Zone
also penalises teams who simply haven't come across it before, and tends
to be less inclusive as a couple of handlers tend to dominate possession.

Field size
I've asked the TD to slightly reduce field size, it will not be
significantly smaller than a standard field, but will allow greater
safety margin around the fields. One of the advantages of going to
6-a-side is that it will open up offence a bit, so we don't want to
counter that by making the field smaller.

U16 team
As you may realise, there is an U16 team at the tournament who will be
playing in the U18 division, so please be especially careful when
playing against this team and do your bit to ensure they have a great
time while in Sydney. They are coming from a long way away, and some
could be playing for Australia in 2010!

Youth rules
We discussed this at the recent national youth conference, and we're
intent that there will be uniform rules for youth ultimate. We realise
that some of you play in leagues or tournament or nationals with the
regular rules, but just as you play different rules in beach ultimate or
indoor ultimate, i'm sure you can adapt and enjoy. These rules changes
are for the safety and enjoyment of all players and don't detract from
the fundamental challenges and skills development of the game:
1. Unlimited subs during a point by tagging at the halfway sideline.
2. Dropping the pull is not a turnover.
3. The marker should be no closer than 1m to the thrower.
4. No time-outs.

I'm afraid these are off the top of my head, but I just wanted to make
sure they were out there being considered, we'll provide you with
complete information at the tournament.

We are happy to listen to your feedback about any aspects of the
tournament during or after the event.

The AFDA youth policy is inclusive of youth in determining the direction
of youth ultimate, you definitely have a voice in our sport reaching up
to the highest levels.

At the moment, I'm not planning on attending the Camp or the Tournament,
a fact I am quite sad about as I know it will be an excellent few days
of ultimate and love the teaching experience.

Piers Truter, coach of the 2006 Australian U19 Men's Team, will be
managing the Training Camp. If you have a chance of attending, I
thoroughly recommend it, he is perhaps our premier coach and loves a laugh.

Matthew Dowle, one of the best players in Australia, silver medallist at
the 2005 World Games, is the tournament director, and seems to have a
great weekend planned for you all. Hopefully you'll get to match up
against him at some stage in your ultimate career.

They'll be ably supported by an enthusiastic group of volunteers.

I hope to see you at one of the national events later in the year or
next year.

Enjoy all!

--
Regards,

Jonathan Potts
[email protected]
0405 188 599
Chief Executive Officer
Australian Flying Disc Association Inc.
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timill
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« Reply #49 on: June 26, 2007, 07:10:25 PM »

haha, you beat me to it.

Some big things to discuss in there. What are your thoughts?
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SparkE
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« Reply #50 on: June 26, 2007, 10:44:51 PM »

.... im not a fan of 4:2 if we'd have known it was to 4:2 then maybe our team wouldnt have recruited as many girls..... soo less field time now Sad

but i spose it is better for lot of other teams who dont have to play savage now!

not of fan of the one metre rule though.... played it at school ultimate and thought it was terrible!!! you CANNOT force with 1m its way to easy to break!! changes the whole game......
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Kablamo
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« Reply #51 on: June 27, 2007, 01:23:55 AM »

Its good and bad.... the new ratio will surely upset the girls... but id say its prolly better than 3:3 considering the imbalance of guys and girls

the 1m rule...never played with it before but ellie is prolly right about how hard it will be to mark somone now....hmmm
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a1214
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« Reply #52 on: June 27, 2007, 02:16:11 AM »

Pretty annoyed at the 4:2.

Thanks for rewarding teams that were well prepared and put effort into recruiting, particularly for an event where hundreds of dollars were due to be paid and now finding that what we thought was going to happen since we had paid money for it has changed. Its taken us pretty much until a couple of weeks ago thanks to a stupid lucky streak that we actually had enough girls to field a team on the day (funnily too many now) and I'm honestly really happy to find that the effort wasn't completely pointless.

Thank you for expecting us to fork out another $70 in team fees because of other people being unprepared AND having to go through the problems of getting more people to play if we want to split and give the girls a decent game.

Good call with the change, especially with about 11 days till the actual tournament.

A sport trying to find legitimacy pulling something like this at a national level. Thanks!

I'm still annoyed, I wonder what will change in a couple of hours.

1m, I don't think will be able to be enforced properly, they tried to do it at Gala, and I'm pretty sure it didn't happen in any of the games we played.

And really, are we that inexperienced? All of the Sydney teams have played leagues with proper rules. I know that kangamoose and church st lighters have probably had that same experience, so I still don't really understand the choice for 1m marking?

EDIT:
Realised bitching about it won't actually do anything, but my argument still stands. Considering you want us to split in 2, is there any way to waive the team fee rather than shoving it onto us after payments and team payments were due?

Also minimum team size is still 11, realistically we (panic at the disc) have 1 less girl on each day because of people missing on those days, if we lose 3/4 girls plus sausage fest u and pick up we're still a couple people short of the 22 players. Just to create empathy for other captains who have had trouble recruiting girls, who would feel like giving up some of theirs?
« Last Edit: June 27, 2007, 02:27:26 AM by a1214 » Logged

this is a pretty cool blog: sifultimate.blogspot.com (check us out)
maxibon
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« Reply #53 on: June 27, 2007, 02:47:53 AM »

Hey everybody,

I'm Max from Panic! At The Disc (I'm a redhead like tiger but without the need to constantly fight people)

Knowing how many girls we went through (we've had 6 girls drop out) seems such a shame to split up our team, but i guess if it has to be done, it has to be done. Also i agree with alex that it sucks if we have to pay more even when we've pretty much been forced to split by the rules. Feel sorry for the girls...there goes your game time! Anyhoo...

1 metre rule is not only difficult to enforce, I can't understand why we should have it at all! We're all big boys/girls here, and this makes forcing near impossible! Not to mention footblocks!!!

Cheers,
Max
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Meagan
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« Reply #54 on: June 27, 2007, 02:55:57 AM »

i think that its stupid.

in some cases the guys will dominate and the girls wont get a go. way too out numbered.

the 1 meter rule is gay as ellie stated and is hard for us that arent use to doing it.

i agree with what everyone else said.

its really late for changes like that to be made and changes the whole format for youth nats.

i know that there are more guys than girls playing but 4:2 is just dumb.

i liked it better before, but its not gonig to be changed around again

i agree with the post above me as i am in that situation with them, its hard enough living away from where your team is, but now finding this out and not knowing what is gonig to happen.

i dont wanna bitch about it, whats done is done, just putting my 2 cents worth in
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simmo
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« Reply #55 on: June 27, 2007, 03:23:41 AM »

Quote
6-a-side
Restricting to 3:3 was partially intended to prevent boys from
dominating play. We hope with 4:2 that teams will still be very
inclusive of their girls.
That completely defeats the purpose! Bit of a kneejerk reaction, Pottsy (if you're reading this).

(I'm a redhead like tiger but without the need to constantly fight people)
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Tiger
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« Reply #56 on: June 27, 2007, 04:59:55 AM »

I guess it's already been said that no amount of bitching will change their decision, but that's really really tight.

As of time of writing the poll was in favour of 3:3. There's been so much discussion about why in fact the ratio was 3:3 - it being a development year, not wanting to restrict not just the field time of women but also their role. I was under the impression that this was what the AFDA were setting out to do: by making the ratio even, it means that guys get slightly less emphasis - which our inflated egos could deal with, I'll admit - and girls for once share an equal function with the boys.

Guess not.

Bec has told me that she's not going to play Youth Nationals if the ratio is 4:2. And I can see why. Even in regular Ultimate, with a ratio of 4:3, girls have a reduced role and it's entirely possible - indeed has been done many times to my teams at Hat tournaments and leagues - that a team of good guys can dominate even if their girls aren't so good. With 4:2, we actually have twice as many guys as girls. You expect me to believe that girls are going to have any real input to this game in 4:2? That their role in Ultimate (which was already sidelined) won't be diminished? It's unfair on the girls.

I had a bitch of a time trying to get girls to come and play on our team, and we had a lot of girls come and then give up, but we managed - even still, two of our girls are going to be away on the Saturday. To me it feels like Panic! is being punished for getting everything in order way ahead of schedule. I mean, yeah I know it's hard to find girls, but these teams that would have had to have played savage in 3:3 - what were you doing this whole time? I mean surely you didn't just think 'yeah great we have three girls, the ratio is 3:3, it's cool we don't need to find more girls'.

And there's the whole we already paid, and finding more guys to field a second team - one week before the tournament - is going to be really hard (who wants to give up 2-4 days of the pre-Trial HSC holidays?)  but I guess the point here is there are what, six other teams apart from Panic!? Sure, this ratio change might screw around with our roster, but if it benefits everyone else, I'm all for it. I'm still bloody angry though.

T.

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cupcake
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« Reply #57 on: June 27, 2007, 05:26:33 AM »

Yeah must admit, 4:2 gender split was the last thing i could have tought of to change it too. Bit of 100% turn around there and i am scratching my head at the logic behind it. First we are told 3:3 is the gender split to encourage equal participation and presence on the feild. We are then told that playing 4:3 would defeat the equality. So they change it to 4:2 so that there are double the amount of guys the girls on the field. This notion doesn't increase the likely hood of boy domination more so then a gender split of 4:3 would do? I know the afda and higher powers have put alot of work into the development of juniors and the plan behind it, but is there something magic about 6 players on the feild that they are not telling us? It seems absurd that it is changed to this in an 100% turn around in thought patterns and logic? Is it time to change this discussion title to... 4:3, 3:3 or 4:2? Still poundering over the number 6 atm, i know its to reduce junk/zone, but now i see the more 'experienced' players playing some hard poachy/switchy defence until the team that they are playing prooves that they can use there brains and beat the poach. Or due to the 'open space' that has now been created on offence is youth nats going to turn into a huck fest? Then we chuck in the 1 metre force rule, and we see it impossible to shut down these hucks, so we now revert to a straight up/return force which a) is zoney and b) is something else we need to teach and c) may increase the poach? i possibly could be rambling, but hey what you gonna do Cheesy on the note of recruting girls and now having too many, thats a funny thought as most of us are complaining that its too hard to recrute lady players. As for giving up girls to make another team, yes i think its a great idea. But no i wouldnt give up any of the girls that we spent ages trying to find. But now the concept of having 3 girl subs with only two on the feild wouldnt appeal to me if i was a girl, so are we expected to give up girls we trained so there could be another team, and the girls get good game time. Beats me...

No time outs, im gonna be freaking tired. a month with no exercise didnt help in the lead up to youth nats Cheesy *shakes fist at rain*

Subs during the point - i think this is going to became very controverstial. You start on offence, turn the disc over, and you can now come off and let the d team get the disc back for you...etc and vice versa. But i do aplaud the afda and higher powers for taking my fitness into account when they made this decision Tongue Grin But see it as bad *evil eyes* would much perfer time outs.

Dropping the pull will still be embarrasing, but now we can make hectic bids on the disc with no risk of a turn over Smiley New award - best bid on incoming pull!

1 metre mark - think i covered it above, this is also unfair to us short people who have measly arm spans unlike mr la di da 2m armspan i live in south australia! *shakes fist at robbie*

On a side note, During non-world years can i suggest forcing these rules upon other national championships (mixed nats, uni games etc) as it will aid in the development of the support as fair more people play at these levels. Then we can see the reaction when others have to play 'modified ultimate'  Grin...that would be great!

(I'm a redhead like tiger but without the need to constantly fight people)
ROFL
[/quote]
ROFLMAO

any other rules about to be mentioned to us?

CUPCAKE
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cupcake
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« Reply #58 on: June 27, 2007, 05:36:03 AM »

i understand totally tiger...as ellie said if we knew ratio was gonna be this we didnt have to put so much effort into finding as many girls...if i was a girl i contemplate pulling out if you had a large enough roster. Even with 5 girls on our roster it is extreme to have 3 subs, but this was sorta happening to the guys before the gender split change. we had 7 guys, so we would have 4 guys subs, it would have been worse for other teams. Cant we just play ULTIMATE. ULTIMATE THAT EVERYONE ELSE GETS TO PLAY! 4 guys, 3 girls! if you dont want zone then ban it! you can enforce no zone!

We have all trained gender split 4:3. given the split is now 4:2, will it really hurt to change it to 4:3 and ban zone defence? It means girls get game time, guys get game time, and its still relitively equal participation/presence! more so then it will be for 4:2 gender split. WHY ARE WE MODIFYING A NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIPS?
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« Reply #59 on: June 27, 2007, 06:22:05 AM »

go cupcake,

he said it in 1, wat more needs to be said
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