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Author Topic: "The biggest decision we'll ever make"  (Read 44818 times)
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NatRoxy
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« Reply #15 on: February 28, 2008, 09:26:51 PM »

A consideration for moving Nationals are the number and quality of tournaments leading up to both Regionals and Nationals. It's really difficult to recruit players to a Nationals team when you ask them to train several times a week but you only ask them to attend one maybe two tournaments before qualifiying at Regionals. It might be easier to recruit if there was something more to play for?

Having some gender only tournaments in Oct / Nov would allow for new talent scouting - have a hat then a tournament for teams intending to field at Nationals. This allows the recruiting of existing league and uni players into gender teams. A tournament every three weeks from Nov would allow for more competition, increase the standards and raise the profile of Ultimate. It would also assist in the seeding of teams for Nationals.

A summer Womens / Open league may also allow fitness training, scouting and enhance committment to a Womens / Opens Nationals campaign.

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simmo
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« Reply #16 on: February 28, 2008, 11:44:44 PM »

For those interested, in 2007...

41 people (23 guys and 18 girls) played both AUG and Nationals.
31 people played both Mixed Nats and AUG.

39 played all three.

216 played Nationals only
265 played either AUG or Mixed Nats only.


For what it's worth, I think any talk of a Nationals/AUG clash is a moot point as it's only affecting 2-3% of AFDA members.
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Frank
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« Reply #17 on: February 29, 2008, 01:05:11 AM »

For those interested, in 2007...

41 people (23 guys and 18 girls) played both AUG and Nationals.
31 people played both Mixed Nats and AUG.

39 played all three.

216 played Nationals only
265 played either AUG or Mixed Nats only.


That is quite interesting...hmmm. I guess those 39 players are the real keen beans.

So from that I think you could safely take the AUG problem out of the equation, in that the timing of Nationals should not be affected by AUG.

Owen I think you make some good points.
I would question your premise no.2; the assumption that if you relieved all the top players in Australia from their playing duties over the summer months, then they would automatically use that time for grassroots ultimate promotion. I don't think it works that way, but I guess that's difficult to prove one way or the other.
Although having thought about it for the time it took me to write that last sentence, I guess if you consider just playing league etc. as a form of grassroots work, then that premise may be more accurate.


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simmo
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« Reply #18 on: February 29, 2008, 01:17:32 AM »

While I'm in a number crunching mood...

This is the numbers of active (ie: played in the last 12 months) AFDA members.

2004 numbers as at 2nd December, 2004
2005 as at 23rd August, 2005
2006 as at 25th December, 2006
2007 as at 19th November, 2007

NSW
2004 - 1416
2005 - 1363
2006 - 1380
2007 - 1507

ACT
2004 - 522
2005 - 469
2006 - 417
2007 - 548

QLD
2004 - 246
2005 - 199
2006 - 265
2007 - 354

SA
2004 - 132
2005 - 146
2006 - 217
2007 - 228

WA
2004 - 58
2005 - 78
2006 - 125
2007 - 284

NT
2004 - 13
2005 - 2
2006 - 9
2007 - 21

VIC
2004 - 288
2005 - 197
2006 - 397
2007 - 464

TAS
2004 - 79
2005 - 104
2006 - 103
2007 - 136


Total
2004 - 2754
2005 - 2558
2006 - 2913
2007 - 3542


You can make numbers say anything you want, really. The "25-30% growth" comes from people simply joining the AFDA. The above numbers show active members, which doesn't really translate to 25-30% growth per annum. It's more like 10%.

I think this highlights we've got a problem with retention more than anything else.
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simmo
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« Reply #19 on: February 29, 2008, 01:50:51 AM »

More nerdish behaviour...



Week by week active member numbers between November 2005 and November 2007, with a few key dates marked.
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JMc
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« Reply #20 on: February 29, 2008, 03:18:59 AM »

Re: AUG and Nationals.

I strongly disagree with the idea that this clash can be disregarded on the basis of numbers alone. Yes, it affects a relatively small number of players. However, I think it's extremely important to consider who these players are.
Looking back over 2007 AUG teams, it strikes me that the players on their teams who are driving forces in the uni club are pretty much all playing Nationals, and typically in a strong team. This makes sense - if you're prepared to bash away at the brick wall that is promotion/recruitment in uni Ultimate every semester, and try to grow a uni club, you're probably pretty keen on frisbee and enjoy being able to play with a group of good players at Nats.

Sure, there aren't many AFDA members who have direct clashes with AUG and Nationals. I think there are a hell of a lot that would be affected, though. A bunch of the leaders at uni clubs are driven by the chance to play good uni Ultimate at AUG, and this is what makes them put time into recruiting and developing their uni players. If this goal is removed, and these players don't really get the chance to go anywhere with uni Ultimate, do you really think they're going to be putting as much time and effort into their club? Will they organise uni training and try to get players coming down if it's not leading anywhere for them? I doubt it...

Anecdotally, UQ has grown over the last 3 years (05-07) on the back of Brett. He put blood, sweat and tears into UQ Ultimate, largely because he loved the chance to play for UQ teams at men's league and at Uni Games. He inspired a bunch of people (myself included) to actually get excited about uni Ultimate, which has lead to the club growing bigger and stronger, arguably the leading uni club in Australia today (don't hijack this thread to argue it, I'm not piping, just trying to support my argument). This is partly on a representative level, but more relevant is the fact that we have been running a 6-team beginner league each semester for several years now, bringing in hundreds of new players to Australian Ultimate.
I very much doubt this would be the case if he'd been unable to get involved with AUG due to a Nationals clash.

I imagine this would be the case with many other unis, though I'm not very familiar with their clubs, but I'm guessing (and mainly commenting on the boys, as I know them better)... Mac = multiple Fak boys... UNSW = basically a whole team of Nats boys... Monash = HoS and Chilly boys, some Nats girls... Melbourne = Chilly boys... ANU = FU boys... etc etc etc...
Also can apply to smaller uni clubs, which are often driven by one or two key players who want to be able to play good uni frisbee, and these players are frequently Nationals players... e.g. Timmy Gee at UWS, James Larkin at Bond, Stef Rappazzo at GUGC...

So I believe that the argument of ignoring the AUG/Nationals clash based on simple numbers is very flawed. These players are frequently drivers in their uni clubs, in recruitment, training and organisation. I believe that their levels of interest in university Ultimate would drop noticeably if AUG and Nationals clashed, as their competitive interest couldn't be satisfied with the uni club. This would then cause the opposite effect to what we're after, i.e. to harm player development through uni Ultimate, which is probably the single most common entry point to the sport in Australia.
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ulty_arnie
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« Reply #21 on: February 29, 2008, 02:20:54 PM »

I think Johnny boy brings up a good point. 

I know I recruited and tried to bring new players to the sport because I love the game so much.  To me, more people equals more teams to play against, more people to think about strategy and style creating more thought about the game, more people to talk about frisbee with, more enthusiasm for the sport which in turns creates more recruiting, and so on!  I just enjoy playing so much, more thany anything else, and wanted to share that with people.

With this though, it is a hard thing to translate your enthusiasm, and convey it, to another person.  I know that I was super keen when I got here to play frisbee, but it was still hard to really get involved and almost didn't join any leagues or anything because it was just hard to find out about them, didn't know anyone there, and had no real connection to any leagues, teams, etc.  However, the thing that really got me involved was Matt Boevink.  I connected with him at one of the come try days and he got together with me and talked about how we should get a team together for BPL.  Him and I started the UQ Lovers, and to this day, they compete in the league, and many others, with 2 teams competing for the title.  The fact is, Matt got me keen by playing with me and teaching me first hand, which really showed me his love and joy for the game and inherently caused me to love and enjoy it.

I learned from this and used this idea to recruit for UQ.  I would promise new players who weren't sure on the game that if they come try it, I promise to play with them and help them out the whole time so they don't have to worry or feel overwhelmed (for those of you that know me know how screwed they were from the beginning!  With this recruiting technique, you would wonder how anyone knows how to play at all at UQ, hehehe).  This has helped in many cases to get people keen and involved, and helped make people converted frisbee players that come day in and day out.  This has also helped when we are trying to get people witih potential to move up from beginner league.  I don't know if this helped (will, gref, jules and them can testify), but I would tell them when trying to get them to YUFL is that they can join our UQ team and play with me and that it will be sweet.  I think it helped them move up as it gave them some similarity and such, but again, I am not sure but they can pipe up on my behalf.  The fact is, whether a completely new players, or someone you are trying to develop, I think one of the most helpful ways we recruited was to be there initially for them.  I know at beginner league, it did help, espcially with girls (I think most know Queensland issue with not having enough women), who didn't really know anyone and seemed a little on their lonesome.  We would have JMac or bree or myself go play with them and make sure they get the disc and enjoy themselves.  I can think of a lot of people who initially looked like they were not goign to come back, but after we took sometime to play with them and get to know them, they became long term players.  I believe Pottsy actually helped bree out initially, and now she is a World Beach Bronze Medalist!

My point, if I were recruiting at a Uni league or trying to get beginners to move up, it would be hard to give them that attention as I would be focusing more for nationals.  Hard to tell the players we are trying to develop that they should come up to the next league and that we will be there to help when we might not be there due to training, or playing on another team for training purposes. 

It was always easy second semester, since it is Uni Games, to get new uni players to try intermediate leagues quickly because we could be there for them every game and play on the same team and help them every step of the way.  But if nationals were at the same time, it isn't easy to help them develop and recruit new players because you can't help as much and give the time necessary to make the recruitment as successful.  I know that if Matt got us into BPL and then played on another team, I would have been a little discouraged and nervous, as I would be there with no idea of what is going on. 

All I know is that during second semester, it was easy to help recruit and develop as my team during that time was the UQ team and therefore putting time into recruiting new people was inherently good for the team.  However, recruiting during Nationals time is harder because none of hte players you recruit will able to play with you or contribute, so not as easy to recruit as I don't feel as connected to them and I am sure htey don't feel quite as close to me. 

I guess the idea is that is this important enough to change the time of year of nationals or not, I don't know.  But I figured I would give a perspective of recruitment and timing of events.  Do I think you can change it and still be successful at recruiting, of course I do.  Do I think keeping it as is will hinder recruitment, not really.  We recruit nearly 75-100 people each semester so don't think it is that big of a deal.  My point is that it is easier to get people involved, commited, and enthusiastic for the game when we have more to give them.  From the Uni perspective, easier when we have Uni Games and such.  Anyways, I hope this has provided some perspective and ideas.     
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simmo
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« Reply #22 on: February 29, 2008, 06:59:40 PM »

Both valid and well written posts from the UQ boys  Grin

If we changed the date to October, I'd foresee that being a problem for one year, maybe two. This kind of move would force the half assed uni players to step up and start contributing. The standard of AUG would falter a bit, sure, but I think that Australia really lacks a second tier of competition, and uni ultimate could neatly fill that gap. The reasoning behind this proposal isn't to increase the number of players at the top end of competition, but to increase the number of people playing the sport. If we find ourselves with 8,000 active members in 5 years time we can't seriously expect that all of them play at Nationals level? A second tier would develop out of necessity that would contain all the key players to run the clubs.


I get quite worried when I hear that one person is the driving force behind a uni club, because if they suddenly leave (graduate or whatever) then that club struggles to survive. You need to have succession planning - people ready to take over at the drop of a hat. In an ideal world, the level of involvement a uni player has would go like this...

1st year - learn to play, come along to pickup games or social league, try out for AUG team (make AUG team?)
2nd year - play AUG, help out around the club (eg: have a committee role, organise a social event)
3rd year - running the show, being club president/vice president, recruiting new players
4th year and beyond - be around for advice on playing/administrating, teach new players
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gref
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« Reply #23 on: March 02, 2008, 07:00:19 AM »

My main objection would be simple: Money.

AUG's + Nationals + Mixed Nationals all at the same time, means that most people would have to make a choice about which they are to go to. Whereas at the moment, it's feasible to go to all of them, and just be broke all year round.
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simmo
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« Reply #24 on: March 02, 2008, 09:11:57 AM »

The proposal is that Mixed Nats moves to where Nationals is now (ie: April)
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JMc
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« Reply #25 on: March 02, 2008, 09:25:05 AM »

If we changed the date to October, I'd foresee that being a problem for one year, maybe two. This kind of move would force the half assed uni players to step up and start contributing.

Or to stop playing this unorganised frisbee sport where no one seems to be in charge and spend an extra night a week out on the turps...

If this could happen, and a delineation could be created whereby top level players are involved in Nationals clubs (slash NUFL/Worlds) and the uni club is run by players committed primarily to uni, that would be fantastic. However, I'm concerned that this wouldn't occur because a catch-22 situation would be set up by the change in scheduling:
- We've set up our calendar to allow for maximum recruitment in the key time for unis...
- But none of the passionate Ultimate players care about uni anymore, so there's no one doing recruiting or organisation in uni Ultimate...

This is clearly somewhat worst-case scenario, but all it takes is a year of poor organisation/lack of drive for a club to be put right back to starting point (ref: Bond and JCU in the last couple of years, probably not alone). If clubs have these players who are not involved in Nationals, and they're prepared to put in the time and effort of running the uni club and recruiting new players, fantastic - this would be a terrific move.
My problem is that I honestly doubt many clubs have these people... you said yourself, most of them are half assed (which is why they're not involved with Nationals). Not about to get up and drive recruitment en masse while organising how to run a uni club on the side...
IMHO.


The standard of AUG would falter a bit, sure, but I think that Australia really lacks a second tier of competition, and uni ultimate could neatly fill that gap. The reasoning behind this proposal isn't to increase the number of players at the top end of competition, but to increase the number of people playing the sport. If we find ourselves with 8,000 active members in 5 years time we can't seriously expect that all of them play at Nationals level? A second tier would develop out of necessity that would contain all the key players to run the clubs.

I completely agree. A second tier of competition is something we're lacking, and at the moment our low player numbers are a significant part of that. If we get another few thousand people over the next few years, then absolutely, it'll be great. There'll be way too many for Nats, and there will be keen, committed people in local leagues, in uni clubs, in youth, etc...
My argument to this is as above... I think removing the passionate drivers from uni Ultimate may be detrimental to recruitment, so we won't be able to grow to that point.

I get quite worried when I hear that one person is the driving force behind a uni club, because if they suddenly leave (graduate or whatever) then that club struggles to survive. You need to have succession planning - people ready to take over at the drop of a hat. In an ideal world, the level of involvement a uni player has would go like this...
1st year - learn to play, come along to pickup games or social league, try out for AUG team (make AUG team?)
2nd year - play AUG, help out around the club (eg: have a committee role, organise a social event)
3rd year - running the show, being club president/vice president, recruiting new players
4th year and beyond - be around for advice on playing/administrating, teach new players

No arguments here, conceptually. I agree that succession planning is an excellent idea, and is probably the way things *should* work. Being realistic though, you know it's not always the way they *do* work. Many things in Ultimate at the moment are driven by a very small number of people, and I don't think uni Ultimate is typically any different.
There's also a big difference between people who organise a club and people who drive a club. Organisation can be relatively simple - jump through a few admin hoops, sort out financials, administrate a league... they're easy enough. Very different to having a real drive behind a club though - people who are passionate about making it better, about increasing opportunity, about developing players... knowing people personally and helping individuals... putting yourself out there and putting your own time into doing things for the club... recruiting people just because you love the game and that passion shows as you talk.
The difference shows in results, as well. An organised club - sure, it'll do OK. A driven club though, is on a whole new level. I hope others can relate to this point, and not just think that I sound like I'm preaching on a mystical theory...

Anyway, my 22c.
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townsvillemegz
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« Reply #26 on: March 02, 2008, 03:13:25 PM »

I for one, am extremely supportive of pushing back nationals, specifically because the regionals date will then be later and i can worry about regionals after i have managed to get enough people for the league this season. For the big cities it is more about expanding competitions and quality of competition. BUt for us, its often about actually having enough people to play frisbee.

It is nigh on impossible to organise regionals and nationals teams, recruit people and train for regionals at the same time. Maybe its a bit different in the big cities, but running the Townsville club are like 6 people and theyre all the people that will be playing regionals and nationals. Something always suffers, and often both our match readiness and our recruitment numbers.

Also, for us, there is a distinct off season from december until february when people are away, travelling, or we dont have enough people because uni hasnt started yet. So for us at least, it would additionally be a distinct advantage to have more training time.

on that note however, less time between regionals and nationals may not be devastating, though i am sure there are good reasons for the time spaces.

so theres my two cents.
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« Reply #27 on: March 04, 2008, 06:01:24 PM »

i am personnally rather torn about what is better at the moment.

I have only been playing for year and half, but have played alot in that time. I really want to get involved in the uni club, but its hard at the moment, with club (Fakulti) training on 2 times a week (one optional fitness sess, which is the thursday one, but its still better to go). Its ok for me, because i am not on the exec USYD, but for the guys who are, almost every single one of them plays on Fak as well...including preseident, vice president, social director, etc... Its still doable to train at uni 4-6 and fakulti 7-9, but it makes it tough. USYD has a big club with alot of beginners, and if there arent gonna be experienced players around then it will make it tough to retain players. Luckily we have a coach for this semester (cheers jimmy) which make sit easier, but its prob only cos he is injured and needs the money does he have the time. The top level players are the ones running the uni clubs cos they love it most.

The other half of my problem revolves around scheduling of class, which is irrelevant to discussion. But Club ultimate is a big time commitment. I have a number of friends who have expressed keen interest in playing, and the NSL hat tounries are great oppurtunities to get involved, but i cant get in there with them cos it clashes with training. I am always gonna choose trainign, its higher standard and more fun, but its hard. So in sme sense moving it back would be beneficial...more time earilier in the year to get involved and enthusaitic at uni clubs when new recruits come through. USYD has been lucky in a reverse sense in that last year we had fewer players keen to play nationals, or "elite players" with the exception of tintin, so they ran the uni club, but that same core of players this year wants to play nationals and club ultimate.

On the flip side, take those same players out of Uni teams for AUG's and you will see a massive drop in the commitment level for what is a big drawcard to uni ultimate. the top level players are the core of uni teams, despite there small relative numbers....remove them for nationals and you lose a big administrative and leadership (both on and off feild) which will hurt uni teams (maybe). If they had more time and energy to recruit early in the year maybe it would be ok though...i dunno...i am kinda going in ciricles. I know i want to play both nationals and AUG's, i wouldnt want to have to choose.

Maybe there is somethng of relevance in there...or maybe i should just go back to my stupid essay.
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Timmy D
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« Reply #28 on: March 06, 2008, 10:40:59 PM »

Boys and girls,

I feel that a Western Australian point of view should be thrown in here to give a broader perspective of the impact that this decision may have.

At the moment WA only has one allocated spot for Nationals.  It's possible for us to gain another spot but this is pretty highly dependent on Regionals participation.  The problem is that regionals participation in WA is an irrelevant indicator because it's an irrelevant tournament.  By the time regionals comes around (15th/16th March) we already know what WA teams will be attending and who will be in those teams, so the regional 'qualifier' is simply a formality.  Almost everyone in the WA state teams have booked and paid for their flights by February.  Spending $400+ on flights alone is pretty big already, but if we wait until late March then it could be $700+ for flights.  So 'qualifying' for Nationals is something that WA teams don't really do.

Sublime is pretty much at capacity and can easily continue to develop as a club for the next few years but, because Sublime is the WA state representative team, we have to reselect the team each year.  The way to get around this is to start another elite club in WA, but it's a huge gamble because there's no guarantee that there will be a spot for them at Nationals.  And the two WA teams can't battle it out at Regionals to earn a single spot because one team will already have their flights booked.

In order to properly qualify for Nats, which encourages the expansion of elite ultimate in WA,  and allow sufficient time for flights to be booked, WA Regionals must be held sometime in January.  That means our teams will have to train through summer and christmas (typically Ultimate down-time) in order to be at full strength by Regionals.

Moving Nationals later in the year provides a lot more opportunities for WA.  It gives us recruitment time early in the year, it gives us time to develop new players in the clubs, time to train up for an actual qualifying tournament, and then time for the qualified teams to book flights and train up for Nationals.  It also provides a much more clear-cut season that is not split by Christmas and New Years and puts a lot more emphasis on Nationals as the Ultimate prize in Australian Ultimate, as it should be.

Tim
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« Reply #29 on: March 06, 2008, 10:45:52 PM »

Simmo you mentioned that Australian Ultimate needs a second teir. I'd agrue that Australia as participation grows will just move to a more US style teiring system of clubs making Regionals their focus each year rather than Nationals, because they don't feel they are a genuine chance of making Nationals. Then once Ultimate grows again many regions will require sectionals, just like in the US. So I'd like to think that we never treat AUGs like a throwaway competition for those that aren't good enough for Nationals.

Also your stats are a little biased because they based on players that have played AUGs and another event, when there were already lots of players (at least at UQ) that pulled out of AUGs because of clashes with other major tournaments, namely NUFL and Mixed Nats. This happens every year at UQ and included some really big names in QLD ultimate in 2007 like:

Al Don
Genvieve Healy
Eireann Gilligann
Emma Bendall
Kate Baynes

So whilst you may say it only effects 2-3% percent, like Johnny said, those 2-3% are often the most influential, not to mention the other 2-3% that are also quite influential that decide to not play AUGs due to other clashing commitments from NUFL and Mixed Nats.

Also I agree with Johnny on his point of that Uni club leaders won't invest their time in developing the club when they aren't going to be attending Uni Games due to clashes with Nationals.

If you really want to get some interesting numbers - I think AFDA should get some stats on how many Ultimate players were introduced to Ultimate via uni or played any level of uni ultimate in their first 12 months, be it in a uni league, for a uni league team or in AUGs or EUG or the like. I think you will find that is is a massive percentage of Ultimate players, and as such Ultimate should be pushing to support Uni Games and uni clubs rather than undermine the setup and motivation for club leaders to build their clubs.
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