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Author Topic: Referees in Ultimate - Lessons from the NBA  (Read 20263 times)
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Brettski
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« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2008, 12:05:57 AM »

Or people could read/learn the rules?
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Tenk283
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« Reply #16 on: June 28, 2008, 03:47:00 AM »

But what they think is sometimes going to conflict with what you think... That part is human.

No matter how well they know the rules....
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The Brucemaster
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« Reply #17 on: July 02, 2008, 11:24:41 PM »

That's a good point Tenk. In the example I gave there is still room for interpretation on what constitutes incidental contact and no matter how well you know the rules there's still interpretation involved. The same is true of refereeing in any sport and is going to be an issue in Ultimate whether we have officials or not.

Luwee, I'll PM you the team involved.

TB
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Brettski
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« Reply #18 on: July 02, 2008, 11:58:40 PM »

My point being that even at high levels, people are oblivious to the actual rules - even captains. Interpretation aside, simple fouls are often contested because they don't think they hit you that hard (my example of this being an experience from last AUGs).

I mentioned before the importance of knowing the rules, and that's why we try to encourage the reading of the rules at SUUFA, as well as having rules quizes at AUGs, with 'punishments' for people who don't get the right answer...

I don't think it's too much to ask for a new player to eventually read the rules in a self-refereed game. My only fear is that to counter the different interpretations the rules don't become overly complicated, making them inaccessable for new players.
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The Brucemaster
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« Reply #19 on: July 03, 2008, 03:32:37 AM »

Yeah that is true Brett. Even now, having played for a year and a half and heading off to ECCs this weekend I don't know all the rules and I've captained two SUUFA teams in that time too. To be fair I do have most things covered but I'm certainly not 100% clear on everything.
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Tenk283
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« Reply #20 on: July 03, 2008, 06:48:19 AM »

Quote
Interpretation aside, simple fouls are often contested because they don't think they hit you that hard
Grin So true  Grin .

Its my opinion that you should contest a foul if you believe that your contact was either a) incidental (ie. a slight bump) or b) did not affect the player going for the disc.

But "a)" must always be satisfied.  Cheesy

I got called on a foul last night that I contested. A bit of a poach "d" where I ran from the opposite side of the field to swat the disc down. It was a bit tight as the offensive reciever was just about to grab it and we arrived together. They called a foul because they said I hit their hand and got the d by wacking them.... I contested because I thought I got the disc then their hand (ie... Not affecting the play with no serious contact).
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DaveR
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« Reply #21 on: July 03, 2008, 07:40:45 AM »

Watch more games with observers in, before you make that call.

Here's the finals of College Nationals in the US.
http://www.cstv.com/video/?s=videohub&vid=679

In the first pointa guy calls a foul on the mark, because the stall gets high, although in general this game wasn't as bad as I had remembered.

Edit:
Here's the game in fullscreen without ads, right click to save => http://mfile.akamai.com/9192/wmv/cstv.download.akamai.com/9192/cstv_videos/collegiate_nationals/2008/060608_cn_ult_open.asx

Ok...that game is pretty awful to watch with all those chippy calls. I dont know if its an argument for or against refs though..some of the bullshit ones (like fouls on the mark) got overruled by observers, which removes some of the concern about abus eof the rules.

The real problem seems to be that calls are being made all the time, which sruins the flow and makes ultimate, which can be an amazing game to watch, into a boring callfest over travels and fouls on the mark. most of th calls arent ilegal calls, they are just such to make the game almost unbearbale to watch, with probably a dozen stopages a point. At least observers can settle matters, but i dont know if they will make ultimate any better a game. reading some american blogs on this, it seems to be divided down the line about the idealism of sport versus the reality of victory in competition (in some debates).

I guess i dont mind the notion of observers in the elite of elite, to stop people from abusing the inherent power vested in individuals, but generally i think ultimate works fine as a game without. Te rpoblem arises when the self refereeing makes a game which should look great on tv look terrible due to the amount of stoppages. Whether that would be fixed by referees would be debateabl,but then that comes down to the attitude that individuals take towards the game, and while abiding by the rules, it becomes such a stop start game that it resembles nothing lik the awesome fun game i play.

 do callfests amount to bad spirit...i dont know the answer to that either, my gut feelings says if the rule was technically corrct, such as a tiny travel, then its not, but i cant help watching that final and not liking what i see.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2008, 07:44:14 AM by DaveR » Logged
gref
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« Reply #22 on: July 03, 2008, 08:12:15 AM »

Before seeing games like this, my idea of a call fest was about 5 dicey calls a game.

I can't help thinking that having the observers there, removes the responsibility from the players to make fair and correct calls. If you make a call, as dicey as it is, you can just go to an observer and be validated or denied. While the observer is watching the game, he can never be as focused and close to the action as a player, and can never have an unobstructed line of sight. It gives players the option imo to make a call, like a player appeals in cricket. As long as the umpire puts his finger up, it's out whether it happened or not.

/rant

I do like the idea of observers to call you in bounds, and call whether you are in the endzone or not. That is a position where they are truly useful. When you're catching a frisbee, you only have so much of an idea of when you are in or out, and being told by someone that saw it clearly, so that you can either continue the flow, or end the point is better than a discussion. 
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simmo
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« Reply #23 on: July 03, 2008, 08:45:58 AM »

Its my opinion that you should contest a foul if you believe that your contact ... did not affect the player going for the disc.
That's not up to you to decide. If a player calls a foul because they believe they were obstructed from making a play at the disc because of contact, you can't contest based on you thinking that they didn't have a chance of getting it. Otherwise you end up in a debate for ages about whether they would have gotten the disc or not. You can only really justify contesting a call (if you are on D) by saying that you didn't contact them before the disc was dead/D'd.
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Tomsteve
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« Reply #24 on: July 03, 2008, 06:45:52 PM »

If people would just contest or uncontest faster without the massive wait where people point at where there foot definately was and have a tantrum. There is too much emotion in making calls. If you don't like it, contest and it goes back or whatever. The main issue is that people take too long to just make the call and have a massive debate about it on field.

Also I agree the players have the best line of sight, refs can't really make line calls all over the field or strips that occur down the far end of the field after a huck. Even with line obesrvers and cameras there are going to be bad calls, things like icidental contact and all that.

Having a ref isn't going to make a better spirited game, its going to ruin the spirt and people will justify cheating with the fact the ref didn't see or what ever. It'll also likely weaken the community ties that make playing ultimate so enjoyable.

so yeah, I'm down with magic, most people don't abuse the rules and lots of people don't like the ones that do which should be punishment enough.
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Tenk283
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« Reply #25 on: July 04, 2008, 03:27:06 AM »

Quote from: Simmo
That's not up to you to decide. If a player calls a foul because they believe they were obstructed from making a play at the disc because of contact, you can't contest based on you thinking that they didn't have a chance of getting it. Otherwise you end up in a debate for ages about whether they would have gotten the disc or not. You can only really justify contesting a call (if you are on D) by saying that you didn't contact them before the disc was dead/D'd.

I wasn't talking about obstruction. Or whether they may or may not have caught the disc.

I'm saying if you have made a play, and get called. You contest on what you think happened. Whether the contact that you made was disc then player, or player then disc. If you make a play on the disc and any contact afterwards is only incidental, you have the right to contest the call (If the contact is more than incidental, you shouldn't contest. Ever.). If you make contact (that is more than incidental) with the player before you get the disc, again, you shouldn't contest.

Quote from: tomsteve
If people would just contest or uncontest faster without the massive wait where people point at where there foot definately was and have a tantrum. There is too much emotion in making calls. If you don't like it, contest and it goes back or whatever. The main issue is that people take too long to just make the call and have a massive debate about it on field.

Took the words from my mouth. I agree wholeheartedly and when I teach new players about the game (or I am discussing fouls or anything with new players) that is one thing I do like to pass on. Make the call, and get on with the game. Respect your opponent and don't be an ass  Grin .
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moroney
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« Reply #26 on: August 19, 2008, 02:19:41 AM »

Quote
You can only really justify contesting a call (if you are on D) by saying that you didn't contact them before the disc was dead/D'd.

This was always my interpretation of the rules, however it's incorrect. If a foul has been committed, the timing as to when it happened (eg. pre or post D) is irrelevant. Rueben is someone to speak to as he knows about it more specifically.  A rule that needs a bit of attention, but rules are rules.

Tenk you mentioned two fouls that were called on follow throughs, if you say that them hitting your hand didn't affect the throw maybe just pull your hand back when they go to huck? Tongue The reason I mention this is because we can all reel off at least 3 or more calls that we believe shouldn't have happened. However I think we've got to be careful about casting dispersions on peoples sportsmanship and consider the fact that some people don't fully know the rules or have different interpretations. Examples of this are evident in this post already. I think we're doing alright so far as spirit goes compared with the rest of the world, and we're getting better as opposed to getting worse.
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Tenk283
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« Reply #27 on: August 19, 2008, 05:12:55 AM »

Quote
Tenk you mentioned two fouls that were called on follow throughs, if you say that them hitting your hand didn't affect the throw maybe just pull your hand back when they go to huck?

But if I do that, i'm not putting any pressure on the throw.

What i'm trying to find is the happy medium between playing hard and playing fair. By playing fair, I don't want to let people completely walk over because there is a slight chance I might foul them. I figure, make a play for the disc if (and only if) the opportunity is justified, and if you happen to initate contact that is more than incidental, call a foul on yourself or uncontest if they beat you to it. Grin

If only life was that simple... But I figure its a good goal to aspire too.
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