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Author Topic: Frisbees Selection  (Read 30289 times)
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gref
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« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2008, 10:08:47 AM »

I think in general Dan, they simply sponsor a lot of major tournaments, meaning that the tournaments get free discs to use as game discs (and perhaps cheaper tournament discs).

Also, every player feels comfortable throwing an ultrastar. They've been smart enough to develop a monopoly, and unless they do something stupid like Wham-o did when they tried to use their monopoly and 'frisbee' trademark to impose changes in ultimate, I find it unlikely that another disc will be used.

@ John
I knew I'd left one out...
I've thrown Daredevils and they are nice discs, but they are still different. And when you're looking for reliability in your throwing, you want to be using the same disc at practise that you use in a game.
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Seppo
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« Reply #16 on: October 15, 2008, 01:27:10 PM »

@ confusion:

Quote
To my knowledge the only Ultimate Frisbee Discs are made by the 'Frisbee' trademark owner - Wham-O.

Actually, the Discraft Ultra-Star 175 is the preferred disc for Ultimate Frisbee games around the world.  True, Wham-O and Daredevil both make Ultimate discs as well, but any official tournament you go to will use Discraft.

I won't touch a Wham-O personally, but the Daredevil discs have come along nicely.  Their first version was very bad, but I handled one of the latest versions @ WUGC in Vancouver this year and it felt pretty much like a Discraft.
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Tenk283
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« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2008, 05:07:50 PM »

 Grin Confusion is gona love that Grin . Compared his disc to an ultrastar Grin .

Isn't it because of Wham-o and their trademark "frisbees" that we have to call ultimate, "ultimate"? We can't run around calling it "frisbee" or that we use "frisbees" because they have the trademark and the manufacturers of our playing equipment therefore make discs?

O_o

Always wondered.....
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confusion
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« Reply #18 on: October 15, 2008, 05:34:46 PM »

Actually, the Discraft Ultra-Star 175 is the preferred disc for Ultimate Frisbee games around the world.  True, Wham-O and Daredevil both make Ultimate discs as well, but any official tournament you go to will use Discraft.

Isn't it because of Wham-o and their trademark "frisbees" that we have to call ultimate, "ultimate"? We can't run around calling it "frisbee" or that we use "frisbees" because they have the trademark and the manufacturers of our playing equipment therefore make discs?

That's what I ment previously... Ultra-Star is the preferred disc for Ultimate but not Frisbee... Wink You know... Gotta be careful with that word or Wham-O's gonna sue your ass... Tongue

Grin Confusion is gona love that Grin . Compared his disc to an ultrastar Grin .

Hey, don't laugh at me... Wink
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Tenk283
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« Reply #19 on: October 15, 2008, 05:40:19 PM »

Grin I wasn't laughing at you, just in general. Just found it funny how you mentioned ultrastars shouldn't be the "be-all-and-end-all" of Ultimate discs.... Then your candidate got compared to one Grin .
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JMc
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« Reply #20 on: October 15, 2008, 05:44:28 PM »

As stated, the Discraft Ultra-Star is the current preferred disc for Ultimate around the world. This means everyone learns to throw Ultra-Stars and gets used to practising with them... so they prefer to play with them... which makes people practise with them... so they prefer to play with them...
It's a nice little cycle which is unlikely to be broken any time in the near future. Get your hands on a copy of "Ultimate: The first four decades" for more info on the history of official playing discs... pretty interesting read.

@Gref: The Daredevil is a nice disc to throw - I quite like it, in its own right... but as you've said, if playing with Ultra-Stars, train with Ultra-Stars (as above). Different discs have a different feel and a different flight pattern.

On a side note, I suggest people should try throwing other discs in off-season (not leading up to major comp) to get a better feel and understanding for disc flight... golf discs, other Ultimate discs, DDC, old/beaten up discs... I think it helps learning.

@Tenk283: Yep, basically.
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adoboy327
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« Reply #21 on: October 18, 2008, 01:30:16 PM »

I'm surprised Wham-O discs aren't the standard for Ultimate since it seems as if they have been around longer and actually own the "Frisbee" trademark.  Why did everyone decide to go for Ultra-stars? I'm not complaining by any means, I love the Ultra-stars personally.
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Tenk283
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« Reply #22 on: October 20, 2008, 03:15:23 AM »

Doesn't Wham-o also make frisbees for the beach and dogs?
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Verdeburro
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« Reply #23 on: November 02, 2008, 04:14:22 PM »

It might have been an innova pulsar. I have had a few. It seemed to me that the lip was a little smaller and it had less concave on it. The plastic is different though.
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JoshuaPark
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« Reply #24 on: November 18, 2008, 02:57:38 PM »

Discraft also makes discs for dogs and beach stuff. The sky-pro and the sky-styler. They're freestyle sport discs: http://www.disc-ace.com/ultimate_frisbee_sport_discs.html

My guess to why Whamo Frisbees aren't the official ultimate disc used for tournaments is that Discraft stepped in and suggested to programs to use there discs (maybe some kind of contract with the organizations) or maybe Discraft's Ultra-Star is just freakin awesome.  But I'm just guessing, if someone knows give a shout.
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Leftyowens
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« Reply #25 on: January 23, 2009, 09:13:52 PM »

i would have to agree with most here. Discraft has put the effort into sponsoring these events and it has paid off for them in a big way. Another probable cause as to why the Ultra-Star is used more frequently is becuase Discraft strictly makes discs, all of thier research goes into perfecting disc golf and ultimate equipment. Wham-O has thousands of products in many differnent categories, the Frisbee is not at the center of thier product lines. Personally I like throwing the Frisbee as a just for fun disc, (on the street at the beach) but anytime I am practicing or trying to improve skills or playing in a game, I can guarantee I will have an UltraStar with me, with a spare close by.
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JCoWslinger
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« Reply #26 on: March 08, 2009, 12:24:57 PM »

To pretty much support what others have said, it seems as though Discraft has just spent more time fostering the game of Ultimate's growth, therefore garnering recognition as a good company that one would want to support because they helped the game along.  Despite Wham-O's first release of the original frisbee, they have not put as much time and effort into supporting Ultimate, and also therefore do not get as heavily endorsed as the disc of choice.  That's what I understand it to be.  And on a tangent, as long as the disc is flat on a plain, round on the other plain, and weighs 175g, I'll throw it. I don't care. It's all fun, why bitch about the disc?
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mikeqr
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« Reply #27 on: April 05, 2009, 04:09:57 AM »

So um which of the 2 (Discraft, Wham-O) are better for Ultimate?
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kryptonick
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« Reply #28 on: April 05, 2009, 05:27:54 PM »

I've used Discraft (ultrastars) Wham-Os and Daredevils and although I can't put why finger on my I think the Ultrastar by discraft is better for playing, a Daredevil Disc doesnt feel too different in my opinion though.

Also since all UPA and WFDF competitions tend to use Ultrastars you'd be better practising with them since there isn't much point in practising throwing with one then using a different disc come game day.

Edited for typos
« Last Edit: April 05, 2009, 05:30:44 PM by kryptonick » Logged
Kyle
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« Reply #29 on: April 05, 2009, 09:48:56 PM »

Ok, I'm going to try and drop a little bit of knowledge.  It won't be completely accurate but should be an improvement over the guessing going on here.  The Ultimate History book has some more information and could fill in some details here.

Wham-O is the patent holder of the Frisbee and created the first disc.  Wham-O discs (from the Master Model through the 82E model) were the official discs of Ultimate from 1969 through 1991.  Wham-O also did a lot to get the sport off the ground in the early years.  As mentioned in the thread earlier, Frisbee is just one of many brands from Wham-O.  In addition Wham-O has been sold several times over the past few decades with the result being that Wham-O did not have a very consistent relationship with the UPA and the standards of the Frisbee being inconsistent.  The 82-E mold was very inconsistent - from what I recall due to the titanium dioxide content being widely variable.  This lead to the disc's flexibility being variable.  In 1991, in response to Wham-O's inconsistency the UPA switched over (in a very close vote) to the Discraft as the official disc of the sport.  In 1994(?), the UPA developed official disc specifications based off the then current Discraft mold.

Interestingly enough, the Discraft mold used then (the Westland, I believe) has degraded enough such that it is no longer within spec.  Discraft, of course has been a huge supporter of the UPA, WFDF and Ultimate around the world.  Discraft now actually has a second mold (the Wixom, I believe although I may have mixed these two up) that is very similar to the Westland but there are slight differences between the two.  The UPA now has a new disc approval process and there are several that are "UPA approved" however only Discraft's two molds are "Championship Approved."  I think CUPA has used Daredevil in some of their CUPA Nationals. 

It's not surprising but people like consistency.  As a thrower, I'm sure I could get used to the flight characteristics of any mold, but Discraft will reign supreme unless another company can create a huge incentive to switch over.

Wham-O, for their part, had been trying to reverse engineer the Discraft mold.  But getting the mold right is only part of it.  You also have to get the right plastic and processes (heating, cooling, time in the mold etc.).  (Please keep in mind that I'm no plastics engineer so please excuse any mistakes here) 

Wham-O for a time while I was at the UPA also was investing a huge amount in youth Ultimate.  They supported an incredibly productive PE Outreach program that helped the UPA spread the sport to thousands of PE teachers throughout the US and Canada.  Through that program, funded by Wham-O, the UPA distributed 8 discs, 1 PE curriculum, a rule book and a DVD to over 3,000 PE teachers and is having a direct impact on the growth of the sport.  They also partnered with the UPA to develop it's instructional DVD and then distributed that DVD with Wham-O Ultimate discs sold in stores across the US.

I know one of the first things were taught when we start playing Ultimate is that Wham-O is bad and evil and tried to change the sport and won't let us use the word Frisbee.  Wham-O's not bad - they are just inconsistent in their support for the sport and their ability to produce good discs.  Who knows?  This may change someday.  Also, they have no problem with "Ultimate Frisbee" - I'm sure they'd love to get their brand out there more at some level. 

That said, Jim and Pad and the crew at Discraft are great and they've been there for 18 years now making great discs for the sport and supporting Championships around the world and the UPA's coaching clinic among other things. 

So long story short, if you are going to buy a disc for Ultimate, buy an Ultrastar.  If you want to buy a disc for Freestyle I believe the Discraft Sky Styler is the disc of choice.   
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