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Author Topic: 3rd training Session  (Read 12659 times)
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kryptonick
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« on: October 22, 2008, 06:17:42 PM »

Hi All

I formed a new team recently, and next wednesday is our 3rd training session. The first session I gently introduced the rules of the game, being lenient with things like stall counts and travels, we only had 6 people and so we didn't get much of a game, but it did allow for me to help people learn to throw well. We then had a week off due to weather (outdoor practise isn't great for beginners....) and today we had out 2nd session. We doubled the numbers, and one of the new comers was an experienced female. Up until now all the interest was from guys. She is a much better player than I am, but isn't willing to do any coaching as she isn't confidant enough to stand infront of a group of guys and tell us what we are doing wrong. Now and again she will pitch in if she thinks i've missed anything though.

I'm now desperate to get more girls involved (and already have one promise to come next week). Hopefully this will make our current female member more comfortable talking to the large group, and I believe getting more girls involved will interest other girls to get involved, and as interest from girls grows then interest from the guys will increase too.

Today I coached people on their forehand and backhand throws, most people as expected can throw back hand reasonably and most have shown improvement on the forehand even in the course of the 45mins or so I had them practise. One guy in particular really struggles with the forehand, and his backhand is very light and wobbly; so I asked our experienced female to throw with him and help him out, but although the advise she gave him was sound, he really cant get it working.

Does anyone have any tips on how to teach someone who really struggles with throwing?

We also split into teams and played a game. The girl and I went on different teams and tried to introduce the stack and forcing to our team mates. This was relatively successful on offence, but forcing was pretty hard to get into them.

Next week I plan to start with a throwing session again, having everyone pair up and throw back and forward for a bit. I'll watch each pairing and offer tips where I can. I'll ask the girl to do the same. I also have some ideas on drills to get to grips with the stack. Simply lining up and cutting in order will help familiarise people with the idea behind the stack.

I'd love some tips on how to coach The Force (que star wars jokes) to beginners, or do you think it's maybe too soon for that?


Sorry for the huge first post,

Nick


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roboguro
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« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2008, 06:56:50 PM »

Throwing well is all about practice. If they've been explained how to throw, and can't do it, that's really one of the most important things.

With regard to explanations, not everyone understands the same explanation. Have you tried saying things in a different way?
Sometimes if words aren't working, I go through the throwing motion slowly and have them watch how I do it.
Another thing I do is move their arm in the fashion they should when throwing.
I think for forehand, a lot of people have trouble flicking their wrist sideways and not up and down so depending on they way they throw, they have problems with giving the disk adequate spin, or keeping it horizontal.

It really helps if you are able to tell what is making the thrower throw a bad throw. That way you can say, "do you know why it didn't work that time?", or "this time you (did this instead of that)".
If you keep reminding them to adjust their throw, eventually they'll get it.
If it gets a little better, even if it's not perfect or what you want, remember to tell them, "hey, (this aspect) of your throw was good!"

Hopefully that was helpful Smiley
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Seppo
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« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2008, 10:32:26 PM »

Hey kryptonic,

Welcome to UT.   Smiley

Before I get into throwing, I don't think it's ever to early to start teaching the basics.  And the force is most definitely one of the basics.  Go for it.  Plus, it's a relatively simple concept to teach and understand.

As for throwing, as you said most people can throw a backhand relatively well.  The forehand is a throw you either pick-up right away or you struggle with until you finally get it.  You might check out this post for tips:

http://www.ultitalk.com/index.php/topic,153.0.html

Furthermore, when I teach the forehand to a newbie, I have them touch their elbow to their side and make sure it doesn't separate.  Almost as though it were stitched to their ribs/waist.  Sure, it looks and feels funny, but it's a great way to ensure they are using mainly wrist motion when throwing the disc.  Be sure to keep distances short, as this method is there to help their form.  And make sure they understand to SNAP the wrist, like they were cracking a whip.

Good luck with your team!

- Seppo #22
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Tenk283
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« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2008, 11:08:07 PM »

Quote from: seppo
Furthermore, when I teach the forehand to a newbie, I have them touch their elbow to their side and make sure it doesn't separate.  Almost as though it were stitched to their ribs/waist.  Sure, it looks and feels funny, but it's a great way to ensure they are using mainly wrist motion when throwing the disc.

Best way to get them throwing a forehand right. Its important that you get them to start to extend their arm after they start to get a hang of what is going on.... There is a fellow at newcastle that has been playing for as long as me, I can pivot wide and throw from a low position because i've got free use of my arm, but he can't because he never got his elbow away from his hip.

Quote from: kryptonic
One guy in particular really struggles with the forehand, and his backhand is very light and wobbly; so I asked our experienced female to throw with him and help him out, but although the advise she gave him was sound, he really cant get it working.

I've had this problem once before, except it was a female that couldn't get it going.

Just tell him to rip into it. Don't be afraid of throwing it too hard. Tell him to hang onto the disc as hard as he can and huck it at you. The important thing is that it seems like he isn't hanging onto the disc tight enough, alot of energy is lost when the disc leaves the hand. Which generally makes backhands low on power... The wobble is just a matter of training the arm muscles to throw right.

It took me over a year to get a serviceable forehand, and even now at a year and a half, it is only serviceable for a reciever.... So let your team know that alot of people struggle with it. I know a couple of people in newcastle that are gun players now, but they couldn't throw a forehand for ages.

best of luck to you, kudos for setting up your own team. Keep up the good work.
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kryptonick
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« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2008, 04:50:33 AM »

I'm worried that if I tell him to hold his elbow to his hip he will keep doing that as time goes on. I have played with some otherwise excellent people, but they have no reach on the forehand because they keep their arm down their ribs. Is this the way most people are taught to throw forehand? Once they have that action down you bring in the arm, and then add in the legs for stepping around? I think when I was taught, i was scared away from touching my elbow to my hip. I'm not disagreeing with what you've said, i'm just hoping you can set my mind at rest Cheesy

I'll definately download the free handbooks. I've read alot of resources online on different grips to teach etc.

Should I concentrate on getting his backhand working before asking him to throw forehand?

Sorry for all these questions, it a little tough to be running a team with fairly little experience. I really appreciate the tips you're giving me.

Nick
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ash_5
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« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2008, 11:54:43 AM »

I was taught to throw forehand with my arm on my hip cause it helped me get down the action that is needed from the wrist and then with time and confidence in my forehand I learnt to get that extension away from my body and then with the varying heights (low flick, normal level and high flick). now its become my throw of choice so its do-able for someone to start out with the elbow tucked in then slowly let it leave the hip.

also ive found that their grip might be affecting it. so their grip might be a bit too loose or their hand might be snapping over. I've found that quite a few of the beginners tend to have their flicks blade over on them so i suggest that they start their throw with their palm up and go from there.

The wobble that you speak of might be due to the lack of spin, so like Tenk said, just get him to rip it. Get him to get the technique down pat first and throwing backhands competently then get him to work on his touch and getting the correct amount of power behind each throw.

hope it helps and good luck
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Tenk283
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« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2008, 05:06:26 PM »

Throw of choice ash?  Grin Its all you throw. I didn't see one backhand in our game against you, you preferred to throw break flicks.

Quote from: ash
also ive found that their grip might be affecting it. so their grip might be a bit too loose or their hand might be snapping over. I've found that quite a few of the beginners tend to have their flicks blade over on them so i suggest that they start their throw with their palm up and go from there.

Smiley Sound advice, but that is something that affects the throw later on. So, when the forehand starts to come good, they need to have their palm facing their target, rather than up to the sky...

Anyway, in regards to the hip-elbow thing. It is down to personal preference. Once the action is there, and the forehand becomes servicable alot of people make a choice. They either decide they do wanna get better and be able to throw flicks from alot of different positions, or they figure they have a serviceable forehand and they don't need to get any better.

The way I learnt was by reading and watching other people... I didn't really have any coaching per se. So my flick has taken a long time to get anywhere. But I kept persevering at it and now i can throw it about 40m consistently (power has been a real problem with me) and i can throw from pretty much any position on the forehand side.

So by mixing things up and just trying to explain things different ways, they will get there in the end.



Perhaps let the guy know that he has a choice to make, if he does bring his elbow to his hip. That once his forehand starts to get good, he can start to extend his arm and get a better forehand, or he can just leave it and have a serviceable one.

Bear in mind though, not everyone wants to be a next star worlds player, so a serviceable forehand is fine Cheesy .

In so far as what to teach first? Both have to be learnt at sometime, so it doesn't really matter. I've seen people have a forehand before they have a backhand.... Perhaps concentrate a little more on whatever is a little bit more competent at this time, just to boost confidence a little.

Apart from that, keep up the good work.
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ash_5
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« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2008, 04:38:47 AM »

but at first the initial action of the wirst is to snap over, so if they have their palm facing the target at the start of their motion their wrist will snap over and face the ground, so my point is try to counteract that action of the wrist snapping over by having the palm up at the start of the throw and then when the throw is complete it will be facing the target.
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Tenk283
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« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2008, 05:57:38 AM »

As I said, sound advice but it may have to be changed later on as it a) puts to much pressure on the finger joints (quote from AFDA and the Ultimate Handbook) b) its my opinion that it also throws the balance of the throw.  Grin

So in summary,

Elbow to hip
Palm up
Split Finger grip (middle finger along the rim, index finger towards the centre of the disc)

All these things will help teach the throw. And teach it well.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2008, 05:59:44 AM by Tenk283 » Logged
kryptonick
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« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2008, 02:50:43 PM »

there is definately a lack of spin of both his forehand and backhand throws. it's the same with other people on the team, its just the one guy is struggling like 80-90% of the time, the rest are throwing will 70%+. I'll take note of all you have said so far, and I'll let you know how our practise is on wednesday.

Thanks again for all your help!
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dit_al_eire
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« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2008, 06:40:48 PM »

the elbow to hip thing really helps at the start if you can learn to move the arm away once you are competent...

the more extreme version that has worked with one or two beginners i know is to actually hold the throwing arm just above the elbow with your other arm ( other arm is reaching behind back) its looks really awkward and is useless for anything excpet learning...but it really helped them get the idea of snapping their wrist...
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kryptonick
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« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2008, 05:53:34 PM »

well it's 9.40pm here in the UK, so our 3rd training session finished about 4 hours ago.

Good Points: We had 3 new members, 2 of which are definately going to come again, 1 unfortunately decided that Ultimate wasn't her thing, each to their own I suppose. The new guys are learning to throw pretty well and with just a few moments spent teaching how I throw a forehand I saw immediate improvements in both of the guys that will come back. A friend from an established team in Glasgow (Scotland) came across to help me organise the session, which worked well when we played games as it meant discussing things like stacking and forcing could be done in the teams. There is a hat/cone tournament in about 6 weeks that we plan to attend, this has given alot of the players some focus. If interest continues we will enter the outdoor regionals next year (feb or march). We'll get thumped in every game, but we'll have fun taking the beatings Cheesy

Bad Points: Day Light Savings means darkness sets in around 5pm, we keep training until 5.30, the pitch is lit, but the  lighting isnt particularly strong, we may need to cut practise by 30mins in the next few weeks. The person with the difficulties throwing was absent today, as was the experienced female and 2 others. 2 of them let me know before hand (illness in the case of our experienced female, and having prior engagements in the case of another) We will struggle next week in a game situation if no other experienced player turns up.


I'll keep you posted as things progress Cheesy
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