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Author Topic: MVP Awards  (Read 50533 times)
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thebozzman
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« Reply #45 on: November 04, 2008, 09:44:33 PM »

Surely we want something more akin to the Brownlow Medal or the Dally M ie (1).

So voting over an entire season (mixed or open/women) in official tournies (regionals, nationals, lead-ups?) divided by the amount of games played? (as some teams in some regions may not get to play as many games as others and therefore it could be dominated from a player that lives in a region where they get more games (would only be a problem for regionals and lead ups))

Could be interesting Smiley
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Meegs
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« Reply #46 on: November 05, 2008, 01:18:07 AM »

I have three problems with MVP awards:

1. Teams are tired after the games and can't be bothered asking who someone is, so they just choose someone whose name they know
2. Especially with girls in mixed tournaments, it usually goes to someone who has done a few flashy things (layouts, hammers etc) even though they may have thrown away every second pass, while someone who has been a dominant, but solid player will go unnoticed
3. People don't want to give points to someone who is clearly the best player on their team, because they maybe didn't play as well as they usually do. If their 60% is still better than someone else's 100%, they should get the points.

Also at mixed tournaments, captains are usually male and don't have as much of an idea how the opposition women played. And they don't always consult the team before just guessing or choosing someone who they saw catch a point or two.

In case you can't tell, I had many MVP-related arguments at this year's Mixed Nats!!
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tom_brennan
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« Reply #47 on: November 05, 2008, 03:59:11 AM »

So voting over an entire season (mixed or open/women) in official tournies (regionals, nationals, lead-ups?)

No, that's not what I'm talking about. Simply that points are not awarded to each team. In the Dally M and Brownlow, points are awarded to the best players, regardless of which team they are on. So if a team plays hopelessly, then probably none of their players will get any points. At the moment, we could beat a team 15-0 and still have to give out 6 points.

Ridiculous.
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Tanty
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« Reply #48 on: November 05, 2008, 07:12:03 AM »

Yay complicated reply time...

In other words, if after the tournament Ultimate went professional and there was a bidding war to secure players, and a players value could only be based on how they performed at that tournament, who would be worth the most cash?? ie Who would be the most valuable?

This is the person I believe the MVP award should go to, but obviously some feel it is not.
I don't disagree but I was trying to explain why I think the "best" players don't win MVP constantly (which may get slightly boring if every tournament you go to one of the same 5 or 6 players gets the award... again)

But if by adding Matt your team goes from 20th to 13th, and by adding Calan your 3rd place team stays in 3rd ... now who's more valuable?
damn... another gaping hole in my logic to patch... Ummm I concede it's not a perfect theory, but I think we all know the mvp system isn't perfect (hence the discussion)

You guys are saying EXACTLY THE SAME THING.

In summary: two differing versions of 'valuable'.
Said perfectly before I could say it myself, everyone is different and has different opinions as to who played the best or the most "valuably" (which isn't really a word) and most people have a different opinion on who should be recognised and for what... valuable to the team or frisbee in general


1) PotT (Player of the Tournament) - who played the best at the tournament
2) BPRttT (Best Player Relative to their Team) - this is what we currently give

My point is that (2) is not really an award worthy of a tournament. Any team can have one of these if it wants.

Surely we want something more akin to the Brownlow Medal or the Dally M ie (1).

I kinda like trying to guess who it'll be "this time" that carried their team rather than going "oh look Gak kicked all our asses again".
But then again we're back to the definition of what we're trying to award and stuff like that... Maybe we should just give everybody an award for trying (then I might get one too).

Maybe this is something Spirit Captains can decide?

Stop sh*t stirring Tiger and go and study or something... you think you're really funny when in fact you're only moderately amusing =P




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The Brucemaster
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« Reply #49 on: November 05, 2008, 07:44:11 AM »

Why not combine a few of the ideas we've had so far and have two awards??

As we've already discussed, there are several problems with the current MVP system (people not knowing everyone in the other team, captains not consulting their team, different definitions of valuable etc.) and most seem to agree it needs modifying.

What if we did this: Had one award for the final (like Best and Fairest in the AFL, MVP in NBA etc.) and one award for the tournament.

The award for the tournament could incorporate the Simmo Voting System (SVS) and the award for the Final could use Dan's panel idea. That way we're compromising between it being the best outright player and the player that plays above their individual standard. 
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simmo
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« Reply #50 on: November 05, 2008, 08:31:08 AM »

It's funny, I've explained that system of mine to a couple of people and it seems that I'm the only person who thinks it would be easier than the current system.
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DaveR
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« Reply #51 on: November 05, 2008, 05:59:34 PM »

The award for the tournament could incorporate the Simmo Voting System (SVS) and the award for the Final could use Dan's panel idea.

edit * sorry, i didnt read it properly, i thought the panel idea was being used for th whole tournamnent, not just the final...my apologies

Panels are a dumb idea....at what tounrament do you have enough dedicated volunteers to watch enough games for a 30 + team tounrament like nationals in order to impartially assess across the 500 odd players who the best 16 are. You could never get enouhg man power for that to work...each team players 8 + games, there are hundreds of games over a tounrament...even at AUG it doesnt work perfectly, and the reason its ok is becaus of th big talent disparity in some teams it is justifiable to watch only the top 8/9 teams and still award them legitmatly. But if a G & G selector (who isnt your own coach and has a vested interest/bias) sees half your games your lucky.  Decisions on who to watch and which games would be entirly based on pre conceived notions.

 At a tounrmanent like nationals, where you have elite quality players in almost every team (not every team , but the majority have at least one elite player....there were dingoes and mundies on open teams 1-14 this year), its just not a realstic option, and i doubt its realistic at many other tournaments either...the TDs and volunteers have enough on theri plate just trying to keep water up, there simply isnt the man power to make any panel conceivable.

i dont mind your idea simmo

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Brettski
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« Reply #52 on: November 05, 2008, 06:14:58 PM »

I always did like it when the other team would do a blind vote, where their players stand behind someone on the other team that played really well.

The small advantage is, if someone was marking you etc, they would have a good perspective on how you played, but they can also vote for other strong players they recognised. Also, the girls basically take care of the girl vote.
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Meegs
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« Reply #53 on: November 06, 2008, 02:26:50 AM »

I always did like it when the other team would do a blind vote, where their players stand behind someone on the other team that played really well.

The small advantage is, if someone was marking you etc, they would have a good perspective on how you played, but they can also vote for other strong players they recognised. Also, the girls basically take care of the girl vote.

The only time when that sucks is when they get you to open your eyes and look who votes etc. It really sucks when you have no one standing behind you for the fourteen millionth time! But I do like the blind way of doing things.
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shoggy
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« Reply #54 on: November 13, 2008, 11:18:35 AM »

1) PotT (Player of the Tournament) - who played the best at the tournament
2) BPRttT (Best Player Relative to their Team) - this is what we currently give

ok, late with my 2 cents, but thought it might provide a useful flipside. I believe the BPRttT is a worthwhile award for what it is, but it is in no way comparable to a far more elite and prestigious, and in my mind preferred, PotT style award. I believe there is currently room for both, but the BPRttT is just that and is not really the MVP as most would recognise the MVP in other sports, so we can't continue to use the current system/s to if we are going to continue to call the award the MVP. With many clubs these days having end of seasons awards, the BPRttT can kinda be acknowledged in this manner, and its probably a more relevant place to do so. The unspoken part of the current MVP title is MVP "of the tourney".
I won the award playing on a team with far better players than myself (and against far superior players), because I did the most speccie stuff on my team, primarily on D. That gets you noticed - 1 layout block will be remembered over 5 goal assists. Heck even 3 layout bids without actually getting a block stands out enough to poll. The girl making a layout bid for anything will win votes no matter how many times she dropped the disc. (ok, I exaggerate my last point a little)

I think this is related to the 'receivers' dominating the voting, its a bigger visual impact to take a superb offense-saving grab than to handle turnover free and not throw swill requiring superb grabs. One good catch far exceeds one sweet break throw for impact. These visual cues are easily recalled come voting time when rushed, like voting at nats/mixed nats often is.

Another problem with the recent system is that captains are unlikely to include themselves in the 3 vote tally too often. Many captains are likely to get votes from opposing teams, but wouldn't necessarily give themselves their full, when justified, reward. The recent system of voting for both teams instead of just the opposition is far better, but if we open it up for each team to discuss amongst themselves before voting instead of it being solely the captain's choice, that is better again. Requiring proper consideration to awarding votes will increase the award's respect amongst players and provide better vote recipients, not just the flashy layout-D-bidding person.

We should maintain the opportunity that every player competing should be eligible to win the PotT, however only in rare cases should someone outside of the quarterfinals actually win it, as evidence by the gridiron, basketball, dally M, brownlow examples. But the benefit these polls have in voting is the votes are never rushed, its always done upon a little quiet reflection, something no captain ever has at a tourney. Post game umpires and media folk do have this time. And thereby the panel at tourneys might well be an ideal way to detemine the PotT, but the challenge will be to get an even spread of objective eyes. That's something that the UPA can probably achieve, but Aust can't, due to a lack of game wise spectators at nationals.

So if we are going to go ahead maintaining one award, make it the PotT (not sure of a system to get there though), or split the award and give proper recognition to the tourney MVP alongside the BPRttT. Winning any award is nice, but I sometimes wonder if the value of the award was matched by the prize I was given for winning it - a pair of animal feet slippers! (To be fair, the Vics did organise a proper trophy for the award and I don't really pay attention anymore to what the recipients are given these days.)

PS Tom - no offence taken mate Smiley
PPS Definitely bring back the Garvey/Basten award if we continue with the current MVP(/BPRttT) system.
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