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Author Topic: clam d??  (Read 38709 times)
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Kyle
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« Reply #15 on: March 25, 2009, 08:17:19 AM »

I was going to explain Clam but it looks like Gambler has nailed it on the head.  If there's any confusion about what the Clam D is please read what she wrote.  This is how I learned it from a captain on the team that originated the Clam (DoG, out of Boston).  This is also how I taught it at my team's practice yesterday.

A couple additional comments about the Clam:
- The Clam is only effective against a vertical stack (not against a horizontal) because of the spacing. 
- The Clam is most effective when played for 0 or 1 passes and then transitions into a man.  What I mean by "played for 0 passes" is that, as Gwen said, the D pulls the disc OB.  They they then set up the clam (man on the the disc and the two closest handlers, diamond on the back 4).  As the back four cutters begin to cut the defenders in the back pick-up and beginning playing man-to-man on the first player that comes in to their "zone."  This is an effective D to confuse the offense for the first and second passes and possibly generate an early D and prevent yardage gaining throws on the first and second passes. 

Also, a little word about Ultimate terminology - I think it would greatly reduce confusion if instead of using nicknames for defenses we all use words that describe the defense that we are discussing.  I have no idea what a "pommy," "puppy," or "rabbit" are.  But I'm guessing that I've played all of them.  Instead using terms like 1-3-3, 2-3-2, 3-2-2, and 1-3-2-1 is going to let everybody discuss strategy instead of making this a regional forum.  And I think we can all agree that the easier that we can communicate the more productive this will be for all of us.

Of course this is a little tougher when it comes to defenses like the Clam that we don't have good terminology to describe.  Perhaps we use "0" for the players that are playing man-on?  So the Clam would be a 0-1-2-1 where the "0" represents the three players playing man (and you know it's three because there are only four other positions)?

-Kyle Weisbrod

 
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Tenk283
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« Reply #16 on: March 26, 2009, 12:36:42 AM »

Excuse me BJ but Dan's played uni games. I think he knows what he's on about okay.

I don't see the point in bowing down to anyone.

Better off arguing and getting your own thought process straightened out. Better off throwing your own interpretations out there and having them shot the flaming hell down then sitting quietly in a corner and agreeing with what everyone else says.

So please, shoot it down. If you aren't giving some decent comment on the strategy, go back to the corner and sit quietly.

Back to the issue: The 3 "man on man" players.

How would you designate the marker on the disc when the disc moves upfield away from the handlers? When does the open side mark? When does the break side mark? When does the middle mark?

What about playing clam against teams where there are massive miss-matches. 5ft nothing guys marking 6ft monster recievers? Is there any way to avoid the mismatch being exploited on the transition from Clam to Man? Anyway of calling the clam position to minimize the gap? Apart from calling good matches in positions they might not be good at (if the other team has a big handler, calling a big teammate as a man player).
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Chook
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« Reply #17 on: March 26, 2009, 04:06:48 AM »

From what I understand about the 3-1-2-1 clam/ hybrid  was that it was first done way back as a means to combat the set offensive plays from the pull or a stoppage. Teams would receive the pull or start after a stoppage, run their play  and score whilst the defense would try and play man defense and end up just chasing orchestrated cuts around the field and made to look silly.
By playing in the 1-2-1 formation downfield for the first few throws it would stop the offense from running their desired play. Once this has been achieved, the defense goes back to playing man.
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wally
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« Reply #18 on: March 27, 2009, 07:23:13 AM »

Yes the difference is regional.  I think the main difference is that in the US the handlers are all marked, whereas how I've played it in Australia there is a puppy/rabbit and the other two come off the handlers to help take away the in-cuts.  The idea of marking cuts as they come out of the stack is the same, and both are zone/man hybrids.

I've only really seen it used as a lead in to a transition to man, but it seems to have lost favour to transitioning to man from a more standard zone.  The way we play clam here is usually pretty easy to beat if the offence recognises it.  It's main effectiveness is in causing confusion.  It can shut down flow against normal cuts from the stack, and cause confusion in the transition to man.  You get the same benefits from a more standard 3-3-1 or 1-3-2-1 zone to man transition, but it's easier to pick up players when coming out of a clam.
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Mackey
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« Reply #19 on: March 27, 2009, 06:59:53 PM »

How would you designate the marker on the disc when the disc moves upfield away from the handlers? When does the open side mark? When does the break side mark? When does the middle mark?

What about playing clam against teams where there are massive miss-matches. 5ft nothing guys marking 6ft monster recievers? Is there any way to avoid the mismatch being exploited on the transition from Clam to Man? Anyway of calling the clam position to minimize the gap? Apart from calling good matches in positions they might not be good at (if the other team has a big handler, calling a big teammate as a man player).

For matchup issues, you tend to assume that tall handlers will stay handlers--if they do otherwise in man and you can't stop them you might have concerns beyond the clam.

As for the front three marking, typically you go by whoever's closest.  It's not so hard to say "I got it" and start marking--a little experience working together and flexibility in positioning (I've played on teams where the front three don't have set lanes but rather respond dynamically to where the handlers are) goes a long way.
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BJ
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« Reply #20 on: April 06, 2009, 03:42:49 AM »

I gotta say, I dont think anyone will see a regular clam d (man hybrid form) from any aussie teams for a while. Simply because aussie teams dont have the D strength to allow the biggest players on a given opposition a mismatch with their weaker d players. 

Only one or two teams could possibly do it, if they dedicated their best players only to d.
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Tiger
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« Reply #21 on: April 06, 2009, 09:13:48 AM »

Fakulti's biggest rookie tonight took out Tats for a point. Shut him down completely. This 'clam' of which you speak might not be so far off...
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Tenk283
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« Reply #22 on: April 06, 2009, 06:10:04 PM »

Fakulti's biggest rookie tonight took out Tats for a point. Shut him down completely. This 'clam' of which you speak might not be so far off...

 Cheesy

And who was this rookie? This i've gotta hear.
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JMc
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« Reply #23 on: April 06, 2009, 09:55:40 PM »

Is Tats back at game pace yet? Last time I saw him, he wasn't too hard to cover...

And by the way, cheers to Gwen/Kyle/Mackay for their input here. Much appreciated.
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Tenk283
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« Reply #24 on: April 07, 2009, 12:36:09 AM »

That would be a no.

Last time I checked he couldn't turn corners at full speed yet.... He was good running in a straight line though  Grin
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newk
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« Reply #25 on: April 07, 2009, 05:48:02 AM »

Is this still about clam D? Newcastle used to do it quite a lot at uni ultimate when we were good ....... not too many teams worked it out. It kinda got phased out when everyone started using a horro stack and our newcastle-ness got diluted by canberra-ness.

anyhoo

Quote
Is Tats back at game pace yet? Last time I saw him, he wasn't too hard to cover...

man the last time you saw him he was half dead,  lying in a sack all day at BC.....
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Tiger
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« Reply #26 on: April 07, 2009, 06:10:05 AM »

So clam defence:

I'm sure that it would be possible for Australian team to become quite proficient at it. It's not like nobody knows how to play it. After all, all the Dingoes/Mundi's/Taipans last year trained at it/against it, although with a regional dialect ('clam' for the Newcastle-ish, junk variation Daniel is describing, 'FSU', or 'diamond', for the type Gambler and Kyle are espousing).

It's really just a matter of concerted team practice. I can think of a few teams (Fyshwick, HoS, I-Beam, to name a few) against whom an efficient clam defence (at least the way I have interpreted it from these past pages) would work really well.

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BJ
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« Reply #27 on: April 07, 2009, 10:36:51 PM »

My point is tiger, you can afford a weak link in your D line much less if they are going to play clam. If you have a slow or short guy, as soon as the transition goes off, your hugely mismatched.

But perhaps a stacked O line could use it well on the turn; out-of-bounds.
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Tenk283
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« Reply #28 on: April 15, 2009, 01:29:29 AM »

My point is tiger, you can afford a weak link in your D line much less if they are going to play clam. If you have a slow or short guy, as soon as the transition goes off, your hugely mismatched.

But perhaps a stacked O line could use it well on the turn; out-of-bounds.

Not if said weak link is matched up against someone before you start.

The transition happens in one of three ways:

1. The disc is static and everyone picks up smoothly
2. The disc is moving and the pickup is slow, but everything is a mess and the mismatch isn't exploited.
3. The disc is moving and an assignment is blown, gets pounded for a score.

If your weak link is marked up against their weak link number 3 is less likely. Simply because they ain't that good.
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BJ
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« Reply #29 on: April 15, 2009, 03:05:12 AM »

True, but I don't like the idea of hoping for a weak link on the opposition O line.
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