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Author Topic: tips on beating out taller and faster guys?  (Read 46836 times)
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Tenk283
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« Reply #30 on: May 26, 2009, 09:59:11 PM »

And hope you don't get knocked head over heals. Ash, you are not physically imposing enough to stop a 6'4 monster from just running straight over the top of you.  Grin

I suppose, there is the other side to this conversation. You have no hope in stopping anything, so you show your opponent no respect and poach like crazy instead of trying to mark up against him. I tried it on a worlds player (who incidently had about a foot on me)... It worked quite well, he didn't get the disc and I didn't get scored on. Cheesy
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ash_5
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« Reply #31 on: May 28, 2009, 10:24:03 AM »

I'm used to taking the hits from playing basketball as a kid, but if they did, surely that would constitute a foul...
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discman
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« Reply #32 on: June 01, 2009, 10:45:29 AM »

It would likely be a defensive foul if anything.

If I make a hard in cut and then turn to make a hard deep cut I don't expect my defender to be right in my face when I make my turn.  The defender has the right to be there but if I turn around and accidentlly run into him then I see that as incidental contact if the disc has not been thrown yet.   

If the disc is in the air and the defender gets in my way like that as I'm making a play on the disc I see that as a defensive foul since you would have interfered with my ability to catch the disc. 

If that sort of play is legal then why wouldn't you just cut the legs out from under any player making a long cut.  You can make it look like an accident if you want but it would still be a foul. 

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s0urce
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« Reply #33 on: June 01, 2009, 11:24:22 AM »

not a defensive foul necessarily

Blocking Fouls:
When the disc is in the air a player may not move in a manner solely to prevent an opponent from taking an unoccupied path to the disc and any resulting non-incidental contact is a foul on the blocking player which is treated like a receiving foul (XVI.H.3.b).
A player may not take a position that is unavoidable by a moving opponent when time, distance, and line of sight are considered. Non-incidental contact resulting from taking such a position is a foul on the blocking player.

If you're following on a deep cut's heels and he plants and 180's with you right there, it's not a defensive foul.  LIne of sight must be considered.  The offensive player does not have a proper line of sight on his cut.  The theory of the rule states that a cutter in most instances has the advantage and should be able to avoid a defender who's not intentionally jumping in his way.

Nothing gets me angrier than someone who calls blocking fouls on someone who is just playing excellent defense because they're frustrated by their defender always occupying their desired cutting path.
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discman
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« Reply #34 on: June 01, 2009, 04:05:48 PM »

No its not a foul generally.  If I turn around to make a deep cut and my defender just happens to be right behind me and we bump into each other thats just incidental contact and no foul.  Basically thats just good defense.

If I've already made the turn and I'm currently making a deep cut and the disc is in the air and I'm making my play on it if the defender cuts in front of me or obstructs my path to the disc then it can be called a foul.  If I'm running at full speed in one direction it lessens my ability to make a last second directional change to avoid contact so if someone cuts in front of me there will likely be contact.

I've had defenders cut in front of me while making a play on a deep throw and when contact is made its a foul.  If I am unable to avoid the contact then its a foul every time.  Now this doesn't happen very often.  Maybe once a season if that.  Generally contact on a deep cut is incidental mainly becuase all but the most obvious contact is let go.  When if you go strictly by the rules there is very little room for incidental contact which by the way I don't believe I've ever read a definition of incidental contact.  That would be interesting to read.
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ash_5
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« Reply #35 on: June 02, 2009, 07:40:55 AM »

I haven't been knocked over yet, but i find that if im right there on the heels of my player and they do go to make that change i'm right there when they turn and a majority of the time they hesitate and lose all momentum. If the pass does go to them, I can make a slight adjustment and either have a bid on it or get the force on quick.
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discman
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« Reply #36 on: June 02, 2009, 09:54:35 AM »

If you can trail the player you are guarding closely on their in cut and they make that turn to cut deep you will likely be able to legally slow their momentum if you are right there when they make the turn.  Its got to be a boom-boom play, they turn around and your immediately right there in their face because you happened to be trailing them.  The key is to do it before a throw is made, which I would think would likely be the case.  The disc usually isn't thrown until after the cut has been made. 

In this case its just good defense and at worst it would simply be incidental contact since you have no idea that guy is about to cut deep and run into you. 

Just got to watch out for doing that when the disc is in the air or if the player makes his turn and is already several strides into his deep cut.  If he's already cutting deep and you interfere with his cut then it could be a foul.  It can be purely accidental but it may still constitute a foul if the disc is in the air and the offensive player is making his play on it or if you interfere to any large extent on his ability to continue his cut once he's already committed to it.

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s0urce
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« Reply #37 on: June 02, 2009, 12:53:53 PM »

UPA rules define incidental contact as:

"Incidental contact: Contact between opposing players that does not affect continued play"

Definitely open to some interpretation.  I had a bad call on this once.  We were both going for a deep throw (I was on D) and jostling a little bit.  Our feets touched and kind of tripped us both up a few steps.  The offense called a foul on me despite him having no chance on ever catching the disc even without the incidental.  He agreed the contact was not intentional, but his argument was that it still affected his ability to continue making a play on the disc.

Boooo.... bad call.
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discman
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« Reply #38 on: June 02, 2009, 02:31:37 PM »

Yeah I would agree on that one.  If he has no chance at catching the disc or if the disc was out of bounds or something then its no foul.  If the disc is within arms reach and you trip him up it would be a foul.  It was not intentional but it would prevent him from catching an otherwise catchable disc. 

By the definition you provided any contact that prevents the offensive player from catching the disc is a foul so it doesn't have to be very much.  If you impede his progress in anyway that causes him to bump into you its a foul as long as he was going after the disc.  I think in most games it takes more then something like that for a foul to be called but there are those that go by the letter of the law and in that case it can get pretty frustrating.  I've played with guys who will call a foul if a strong breeze hits them. 

Speaking of frustrating calls... how about when a defender calls a pick when they have been totally beaten prior to the pick.  I played against a guy last year that was pretty slow and he'd call a pick almost every time the guy he was gaurding would go deep.  Most of the time we wasn't close enough to his opponent to make a legal pick call but he'd call it just to slow the play down and break the momentum.  He knew it was bogus but he also knew it would stop play regardless.  Many arguments insued during that game but we beat him 15-5 so we shut him up.
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Tenk283
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« Reply #39 on: June 07, 2009, 08:08:42 AM »

Wow, what a chump. Good work letting the score do the talking for you.

That having been said, a pick call is not a "bad thing". Some people have the habit of apologizing when they cause a pick/get picked. Shit happens, a pick is just a way of sorting stuff out so people don't get unfair advantage from chumps getting in the way. Plenty of people don't understand the pick rule, which is unfortunate because the game is really tough when you try to play without picks.

There is something to be said for hassling the tall dudes though. Sometimes they are soo used to playing against people their own size, a midget comes in and fucks their game right up. The best thing to do is compete, i definately agree with ash. I've gotten blocks on people with a ft on me height simply because I jumped for the disc. I didn't touch it, but they were so put off by me competing with them that they dropped it cold. One of the best ones was when i got a block on some dude at a uni tournament, he was seriously about a foot taller than me and i got two aerial blocks on him. Booyah.
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tommynomad
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« Reply #40 on: March 10, 2010, 03:07:45 PM »

Lots of great advice in this thread.

As a smaller man (173cm) stuck covering the deep occasionally, I too stick close, let my mark cut into me, and call foul upon contact.

The other rule I avail myself of is the Principle of Verticality, which prevents players from using their height as a de facto advantage:

UPA:
"All players have the right to enter the air space immediately above their torso to make a play on a thrown disc. If non-incidental contact occurs in the airspace immediately above a player before the outcome of the play is determined (e.g., before possession is gained or an incomplete pass is effected), it is a foul on the player entering the vertical space of the other player."

WFDF:
"All players have the right to the space immediately above them. An opponent may not obstruct a player from occupying this space."

I've jumped up for discs against taller players attempting to "sky" over me, made mid-air contact, and called the foul.  At worlds I had a taller man stop marking me after two such calls--he'd never even heard of the rule, got frustrated, and requested the switch with a teammate on the line.  I didn't have any other real impact on that game, but that was enough--I nullified a height mismatch, and that's plenty.
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ksharp
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« Reply #41 on: March 31, 2010, 01:08:06 PM »

Good thread here...

I'm about 5'7" (or 170 cm) and every so often one of these brutal defensive match-ups presents itself.  Remember this: with every defensive position, you are taking something away, but giving something up in return.  Always take away the best option and leave the offense with less attractive choices.

When you're playing a man-on-man defense, and the switch isn't available, expect to be targeted.  I agree that you've got to try to take away the best option (deep strike) at the expense of giving up the in-cut (less attractive considering the mismatch).  To do this, I would typically line up behind the tall player, slightly to the force side.  Exactly how much of a cushion you give is something you've got to experiment with.

If you line up very deep, 9 out of 10 times you will be able to get to the disc first.  Hucking into that kind of coverage has to be considered a risky option, so in that sense you've prevented the big play.  But I think that you give yourself no chance to be effective on the in-cut.  Even the best poachers won't be there to help out every time.  And you've got more ground to cover to get back and count stalls.  So if you give too much weight to taking away the deep strike, expect the offense to steadily march up the field and score.

So I like Ash's tip of marking somewhat closer to the tall player.  You're close enough to make the handler think twice before throwing to that player on an in-cut.  It's also very smart to take that deep cutting lane away by putting yourself right in the middle of it.  But don't cover too close - when that tall player 180s to go deep, he can turn one way or the other to start that cut.  He can get around you if you're too close and on the wrong side.  So your primary responsibility is still to take away the deep strike, but without making the in-cut ridiculously easy.

When playing a zone defense (3-3-1 or 4-2-1) and playing in the mids, I always take away the in-cut, knowing that I already have a defender to cover the deep throws.  Two good options (in-cut, deep strike) are taken away leaving the handler with the unattractive option of throwing some high-release floaty passes over my head, or trying to get an outside-in or inside-out pass around me.  Both of those have to be considered riskier passes.

K.
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JCoWslinger
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« Reply #42 on: March 31, 2010, 09:48:22 PM »

One thing that has failed to be mentioned is the quality of the handler. I mean, I'm assuming most everyone is playing at a level that the handler is 99% of the time going to be able to huck it 50+ yards, but in the case of a hat tournament, or any other situation where the handlers might not be of a high caliber, it is obvious that the in cut should be guarded more heavily than the deep. I mean, if it becomes apparent that your mark is forcing forehand and the handler in question has a forehand that is garbage at best, the deep cut isn't as much a threat and the height is more or less nullified. Obviously the faster guy could possibly still beat you on the in cut, but you can kind of poach in a little more, or set yourself at an angle on the cutter to get a layout d.

Just a bit of situational thought process.
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Ka-ching
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« Reply #43 on: April 01, 2010, 10:51:34 AM »

I am the shortest player on my team and I am definately not the fastest. Almost every person I will cover is taller than me, so the art of body position is HUGE when playing defense. The most important thing is to not let them go deep on you. To stop the deep break, when you mark them you have to put your body directly on their deep side. If you can position yourself where you are on their shoulder, getting right up on them. You want to be almost pressing your body against the deep side of their body so if they try and break deep, they will run right into you (foul on them).

The additional perk of being right on the leg of the man/woman you are marking is that when they break for an in-cut you are in stride with them immediately. Just make sure you keep as close to them as possible without being called for a foul. If you can take away their chance for a deep break with your body, and are able to keep close to them on an in-cut thats the best you can possibly do. Get in their face, make them uncomfortable and force them to make the crazy plays, and just be STICKY
Great advice... I tried this and got the player (taller and faster than me) I was guarding bothered and frustrated, it shut him down pretty good. This is a great thread!
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