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Author Topic: Forehand Dump?  (Read 26389 times)
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simmo
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« Reply #15 on: March 20, 2009, 06:44:25 AM »

Meh. There's an easier answer than Dan trying to work out how awesome I am at throwing.

I'm having trouble with a forehand dump pass, it is very difficult for me to throw a short range forehand without it being extremely wobbly. Does anyone have any advice on this topic?

Also with the backhand it is very easy to throw a disk straight up in the air with lots of spin, and this seems to be a good dump pass for me, where I just add a straight up air throw with a little forward momentum. The forehand grip makes it almost impossible, so this is a second related question I have.

Thanks for any help!
Turn your whole body (via pivoting) to a position where you can comfortably throw a backhand dump. If you're stuck in a position where you have to throw a forehand dump, throw it past your dump into space where they can run onto it.
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The Brucemaster
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« Reply #16 on: March 20, 2009, 09:07:04 PM »

Quote
Lefty's with good throws are like 10 times more desireable for a team than righties with good throws.


To quote our good friends who made the timeless End of the World flash animation: WTF mate???
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Tenk283
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« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2009, 04:15:45 AM »

Left handed > right handed
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The Brucemaster
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« Reply #18 on: March 23, 2009, 06:30:06 AM »

Ahhh yes. Now that you've repeated your point in less words I understand perfectly how you reached your conclusion..... :S :S :S
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Tenk283
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« Reply #19 on: March 24, 2009, 04:12:14 AM »

Where do you naturally set your force from?

The throwers left foot.

Except for a lefty, their pivot foot is their right.... Naturally people set off the thrower's left foot and that is just asking for a left handed break.

Not to mention people not being used to playing against leftys...

Mike Tarn is a nightmare, especially when he hucks. Uni IV he caused problems for myself and mark. Mark was straight up and mike was still getting hucks off, basically because he is left handed and the dynamics of throwing vary from forehand to backhand (speed of release, height of release, method of release). There are alot of intangibles I could spend an hr talking about how throwing dynamics vary from right to left.

Because everything is reversed, left handed players have an easier time of things when throwing.
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Tiger
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« Reply #20 on: March 24, 2009, 04:55:44 AM »

Where do you naturally set your force from?

The throwers left foot.

Except for a lefty, their pivot foot is their right.... Naturally people set off the thrower's left foot and that is just asking for a left handed break.

Not to mention people not being used to playing against leftys...

Mike Tarn is a nightmare, especially when he hucks. Uni IV he caused problems for myself and mark. Mark was straight up and mike was still getting hucks off, basically because he is left handed and the dynamics of throwing vary from forehand to backhand (speed of release, height of release, method of release). There are alot of intangibles I could spend an hr talking about how throwing dynamics vary from right to left.

Because everything is reversed, left handed players have an easier time of things when throwing.

As a left handed thrower who has actually played Nationals, I would like to point out that pretty much everything you have said here is true.

For about two, maybe three points. After that - especially if you are the thrower putting up hucks - the defence knows you are left handed, adjusts and the game goes back to normal.

Left handed throwers are not intrinsically more valuable than right handed throwers, it is the variation on a given line that makes things harder for the defence - that they now have to defend against a team with flick and backhand options from both sides of the field.
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rrudnic
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« Reply #21 on: March 24, 2009, 10:18:55 AM »

I would argue lefties are more valuable than right handed throwers. If you had a line with 3 righties and a line with 2 righties and a lefty and all the players had the exact same throws I'd take the line with a lefty every single time and I think most people would. The lefty will get off breaks and throws that a righty in the same spot won't get.
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Tiger
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« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2009, 04:02:03 AM »

Picking a line up of two right handed players and one left handed player does not make that left handed player a more valuable thrower. It is the variation he is bringing the offensive line, not his hand orientation, that makes him more valuable in that scenario.

Would you pick a line up of seven southpaws over a line up of three left handed players and four right handed players?
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Tenk283
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« Reply #23 on: March 26, 2009, 12:24:39 AM »

Quote
Picking a line up of two right handed players and one left handed player does not make that left handed player a more valuable thrower. It is the variation he is bringing the offensive line, not his hand orientation, that makes him more valuable in that scenario.

Would you pick a line up of seven southpaws over a line up of three left handed players and four right handed players?

Variation due to their left-handedness. So it would make him valuable because he is the one bringing the variation, not the right handed throwers.
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The Brucemaster
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« Reply #24 on: March 26, 2009, 10:24:03 AM »

Dan just because you can't defend Mike isn't to say that lefties are better players, it just means that Mike is better than you...


Tiger is right. Having a lefty handler can throw the defence off for two, maybe three points but after that everyone adjusts. Just like if the defence runs down and throws on a random junk/clam/transition. It might muck your offence around initially but once you settle down a bit you adjust and get on with it.

Dan, you mentioned that you set your force from the thrower's left foot but that's only if your forcing forehand (based on a right hander). It doesn't take in to account forcing backhand, straight up, return, cutting off the dump (e.g. in pommy) and anything else that more knowledgeable players than me can think of.

rrudnic, if a lefty can get off break throws that a righty can't get in the same position then surely the reverse is true, that a righty can get off break throws that a lefty can't in the same position? Even then, the ability to successfully break the mark is largely dependent on the individuals involved, i.e. the thrower and the marker, not the hand that they throw with.   
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Tenk283
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« Reply #25 on: March 26, 2009, 11:03:14 PM »

Dan just because you can't defend Mike isn't to say that lefties are better players, it just means that Mike is better than you...


Tiger is right. Having a lefty handler can throw the defence off for two, maybe three points but after that everyone adjusts. Just like if the defence runs down and throws on a random junk/clam/transition. It might muck your offence around initially but once you settle down a bit you adjust and get on with it.

Dan, you mentioned that you set your force from the thrower's left foot but that's only if your forcing forehand (based on a right hander). It doesn't take in to account forcing backhand, straight up, return, cutting off the dump (e.g. in pommy) and anything else that more knowledgeable players than me can think of.

rrudnic, if a lefty can get off break throws that a righty can't get in the same position then surely the reverse is true, that a righty can get off break throws that a lefty can't in the same position? Even then, the ability to successfully break the mark is largely dependent on the individuals involved, i.e. the thrower and the marker, not the hand that they throw with.   

It wasn't me marking mikey... It was mark  Grin .

Setting your mark should always be off their pivot foot. That is the point that will not move. Therefore, wherever they pivot too, will always be based on that same spot. So, if you put your centre of gravity in line with that point, you should be able to bend, reach and cover any pivot they make with minimal shuffling of your feet. Obviously, if you are short, you have to shuffle further than if you were tall, or if you are marking a taller player.

Covering a backhand is different to covering a forehand. Lets take a pump fake for example. Where the thrower fakes the throw and quickly reloads and throws at a different height. Pump fakes are faster with a backhand grip, therefore your right hand is more used to moving fast to try and cut off the pump fake. Your left hand meanwhile is used to covering lower throws and break throws. Simply because right handed players throw their forehand on a markers left hand side.

Now, the throwing dynamics are reversed and any given marker will not be able to reverse their hands in terms of what they are covering. High release forehands are more rare than a high release backhand for example.

For world class players, this wouldn't be a problem. But for lower levels, maybe the middle to low ranks of nationals, uni games that sort of thing. A left handed thrower could tear it up. Simply because people are used to a certain thing and would have trouble adpating.

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Tanty
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« Reply #26 on: March 27, 2009, 07:21:08 AM »

Clearly lefties have been touched by the troll gods of ultimate... hence why they're so awesome... and they're been marked so us mere mortals can tell... Kinda like rangas (except that's clearly a different troll god's mark)...

Makes you wonder about lefty red heads... what's going on with that double minority... But noone would be that weird would they Tiger?
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Tiger
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« Reply #27 on: March 29, 2009, 05:18:47 AM »

Dan, everything you are saying doesn't equate to lefties being inherently better, only having different advantages (which - oh, gosh! - means left handers come with different disadvantages!)

For world class players, this wouldn't be a problem. But for lower levels, maybe the middle to low ranks of nationals, uni games that sort of thing. A left handed thrower could tear it up. Simply because people are used to a certain thing and would have trouble adpating.

For someone who still hasn't played Nationals, you sure do love explaining to people who have what goes on there. But seriously, you don't have to be a world class defender to realise that a person is left handed (a good test is, if they throw the disc with the left hand, then they probably are) and shade your mark accordingly. I've had pretty awful defenders realise where my flick break is coming from and adjust their mark, and that's at hat tournaments, or division 3 league.
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Tenk283
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« Reply #28 on: March 29, 2009, 07:25:45 PM »

The disadvantages aren't as pronounced.

I am willing to bet you had someone decent marking you at a hat tournament. Or that atleast knows what is going on. Adjusting your mark is still a long way from actually stopping a break.

Quote from: tenk283
Now, the throwing dynamics are reversed and any given marker will not be able to reverse their hands in terms of what they are covering. High release forehands are more rare than a high release backhand for example.

Forehands come out quicker than backhands (generally) and from different heights. People have different heights they like to throw from. You tiger, love that forehand from about knee height. I like a backhand from just above shoulder height. Throwing dynamics mean the disadvantages inherent with a lefty aren't as pronounced. The inability to throw break as fast (comparing backhand to forehand) is outweighed by the fact that the marker might not be good enough to change what they are doing on the mark to actually stop the throw.

That means, they actually stop you throwing the break. Not just step around a little and adjust their position.
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forrest10351
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« Reply #29 on: March 30, 2009, 05:26:41 PM »

it seems like all the reasons left handed players are "better" are all assuming a good team wouldnt teach a player how to play both, or that a team doesnt have any lefthanded people to practice with.
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