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Author Topic: New Rules  (Read 51052 times)
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JMc
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« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2009, 05:02:39 AM »

Now look what you've done, WFDF. You've got everyone upset, introducing a rule that places responsibility for a fair outcome on the players involved, requiring them to be honest and sportsmanlike in the way they play. Shame.

Hang on a sec...
Where's the issue here?

As a handler, you are going to get roughed up. Thats all this means. Anytime there is a throw, and it comes off and goes VAGUELY in the direction of ANY reciever, the defense is well within their rights to contest the foul call.

Dan, in reference to the rules of Ultimate (not the summary of changes), can you give the rest of us some insight about where you get this interpretation??

Finals of Nats, culmination of 4 months hard training, most likely a few hundred (if not a thousand dollars) spent by players to get there and get on their team. If you honestly think they are not going to contest a situation like i've stated above, then you've gotta be nuts. Simply because: how the hell is the marker supposed to know where the throw was going? They have their back to the field. As they turn around to watch the pass, they might see it go flying at a reciever while the disc may have been going to a deeper reciever. Now, if that pass goes near that unintended reciever, the marker can and should contest the foul call. a) because the handler may just be trying to draw the foul and b) because the marker cannot know any better as to which reciever the pass was intended.

The marker doesn't know what the thrower's intended pass was. Correct. Here's a novel thought - they could take the thrower's word for it... Or more importantly, they could play by the rules, described very well (the "technical manual" and "guide for dummies" respectively) by Alec and Simmo.

This new rule probably won't matter much in low level matches. Spirit increases as the stakes decrease. Just the high level ones where there is alot of time, effort, training and money involved. Not to mention pride. Nobody likes getting beaten. Nobody likes getting beaten by your rivals that you really don't like (onfield). Or in general.

So we should cheat to win? Sweet. Nice one.

This rule may cause some problems. Yeah, that'll suck, but pop quiz... Name a rule that *doesn't* cause problems in Ultimate.

It's a pretty simple system. Read and learn the rules, and how they are applied... play according to them during the game... and respect your damn opponents, instead of feeling like the whole world is out to get you and every call is a personal affront...
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simmo
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« Reply #16 on: March 22, 2009, 06:02:23 AM »

Where are you going with that post, Dan?

If the pass is completed, the thrower can call 'retracted' and play on. If it's incomplete, the disc comes back and the uncontested/contested call only affects where the stall count resumes. The rule change doesn't change ANY of that.

The rule change affects what happens if the O decided to "play on" in spite of the foul call, but turn it over. A better analogy is in AFL where a full forward might drop a mark because they get pushed in the back (which is a free kick), but a rover might pick up the ball and run with it (umpire calls advantage play on), have a shot at goal but miss and put it out on the full. The shot stands because they played on in spite of the free kick and the shit kick was completely independent of the violation - it won't come back to the full forward.

Rueben here's a question for you - Let's say the thrower gets fouled on a huck, and the receiver stops upon hearing the foul call, and a disc they clearly would have had a bid at if they kept chasing it goes to ground. In the spirit of the rule change, should that be a turnover?
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carlie
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« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2009, 06:15:34 PM »

This rule may cause some problems. Yeah, that'll suck, but pop quiz... Name a rule that *doesn't* cause problems in Ultimate.

It's a pretty simple system. Read and learn the rules, and how they are applied... play according to them during the game... and respect your damn opponents, instead of feeling like the whole world is out to get you and every call is a personal affront...
[/quote]

I guess my argument is that the system should be simple and I think some of these new rules actually make things more complicated. I also think the more complex (and longer) the rules get the less likely people are to have read the rules or if they have read them, remember them properly. 

Just to add to the fire what do we make of:
Added “disrespectful celebration” as an example of poor spirit (1.6.4)
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DaveR
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« Reply #18 on: March 22, 2009, 10:04:35 PM »


Just to add to the fire what do we make of:
Added “disrespectful celebration” as an example of poor spirit (1.6.4)


Thats an interesting one...didnt know about that. It will likely provoke a range of opinions on what cnstitutes "disrespectful celebration". I have had (friendly) disagreements about this with a number of people (Tiger being one of them if you feel like piping up). I get fired up and emotional when playing, which can occasionally come out in close games. This can occasioanlly lead to spiking the disc. i dont feel liek i am being disrespectful to the opposition, just firing myself and my teammates up. Its a personal thing and is not directed at making anyone else feel down or bad, but keeping my own energy levels up. Others may feel differently however. is there a yardstick for this, is it completly subjective? Some circumstances spiking is clearly disrespectful (waving it in the oppositons face and slamming it down right next to them), but i dont feel like empassioned celebration has no place. Is this designed to rmove people spiking, or the more vague (more vague does not mean that its difficult, just that it is widely open to subjective interpretation) concept of "disrespectful".
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Tenk283
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« Reply #19 on: March 22, 2009, 11:04:45 PM »

Quote
Dan, in reference to the rules of Ultimate (not the summary of changes), can you give the rest of us some insight about where you get this interpretation??

Namely, you play by the rules and call things as you see them. If you see the pass going towards a reciever, it is logical to assume the pass was intended to go to them. You can't know what the thrower was intending, a) you can't see the field and b) you can't tell what he was going to do.

Lets take you for an example. If you pivot wide on your forehand you could throw ANYTHING from a 40m huck to a break throw to a floaty 10m open side pass. There ain't much variation in what you do johnny... It what makes you good.

However in the context of playing by the rules. I would never let you call something on me that I didn't believe was justified, or that I thought was completely wrong. For example, calling me out when I was in (massively in, not close). Calling a pick when you where more than 5m away... Things like that. I would let any call stand that I thought was justified

So if you call a foul on me and i did hit you, I would uncontest. However if that throw goes near any reciever and it is catchable, I can contest because that is the new rule.

Playing by the rules is all well and good. But sometimes people just don't. Believe me johnny, if you call a foul on me I would take your word for it (god help me if there ever comes a day that i am marking you). Being the upstanding guy that you are. Same with Simmo and a bunch of other people that are spirited people. However there are some that I wouldn't trust as far as I could throw them. Simply because the idea of "spirit" is lost on them. I would be cautious and suspicious of any call they made.

Quote
The rule change affects what happens if the O decided to "play on" in spite of the foul call, but turn it over. A better analogy is in AFL where a full forward might drop a mark because they get pushed in the back (which is a free kick), but a rover might pick up the ball and run with it (umpire calls advantage play on), have a shot at goal but miss and put it out on the full. The shot stands because they played on in spite of the free kick and the shit kick was completely independent of the violation - it won't come back to the full forward.

Few people would willingly choose that over a free kick. Those few people would either be brain dead, or just trying to please the other team.

Their will be more "spirit" emphasis on the thrower. Because they are going ot have to decide whether the pass was catchable and whether the foul affected teh throw... Several times recently I have been fouled whilst throwing, however the foul hasn't affect the throw (hacks to the arm after the throw is gone, stuff like that). The old rule fully allowed for the same decretion from the thrower. They could always retract their foul call if they felt it didn't do anything towards affecting the throw.

Quote
I get fired up and emotional when playing, which can occasionally come out in close games

Especially when someone calls a travel on you....

Quote
16.3.5.4. the thrower fails to keep the established pivot until releasing the disc;

Which means if you drag your back foot while throwing that big backhand from a power position, its a travel.

In general, everyone should take care though, everyone travels while pivoting. EVERYONE. Next time you are watching a game, watch a person's pivot foot. You'll be surprised.

The whole "disrespectful celebration" issue is an interesting one... In soccer, players are allowed to grab the ball out of the back of the net, spike it infront of the goal keeper, then proceed to dance with all his teams mates. BUT, they cannot lift their shirt over their head, coz thats worth a yellow card (a warning). In gridiron, players can spike the ball, hurl it into the crowd, slam dunk the goal posts, but they cannot go to their knees. They can lie down though  Grin .

See, so it is quite a messy issue.

Best solution, don't spike the disc if the opposition is within the area. Congratulate your thrower/reciever/team mates and never do it while the opposition is within a couple of metres. Twatson is an epic spiker of the disc and sometimes it is very borderline.
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simmo
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« Reply #20 on: March 23, 2009, 12:03:56 AM »

*sigh*.... I'll try again.

Throw goes off, foul is called on the throw.
- Receiver catches the disc: Play on
- Receiver duffs the catch (in an act COMPLETELY INDEPENDANT of what went on back at the throw): Turnover
- Disc goes to ground as a result of foul: Disc goes back, stall count resumes on 0/whatever based on uncontest/contest.

Disclaimer: the next scenario is based upon my own understanding of the new rule.
- Everyone stops upon hearing the foul call, and the disc goes to ground as a result: Disc goes back, stall count resumes on 0/whatever based on uncontest/contest.

"Intended receiver" is NOT an issue at all, and I can't understand how it could be. Either the offense catches it, the offense drops it, or no one does.



And I never travel, because I never pivot. Have some of THAT.
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simmo
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« Reply #21 on: March 23, 2009, 12:09:06 AM »

The "disrespectful celebration" is a pretty grey area, which I suppose it's why it's a suggestion of poor spirit, rather than a rule. Sean Lace's "sshhhh" celebration at Southerns might be seen by some as disrespectful, but to me it was one of the greatest things I have ever seen in my life.
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Tanty
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« Reply #22 on: March 23, 2009, 03:44:38 AM »

@Tiger, not sure which world you're living. But why don't you come on back to the real world. We'd love to have you.

Don't be so sure... I love the kid but if he joined us in the real world he wouldn't be nearly as amusing to have around

Is this designed to rmove people spiking, or the more vague (more vague does not mean that its difficult, just that it is widely open to subjective interpretation) concept of "disrespectful".

What about that video of the guy spiking the disc outside the endzone? (turnover... that still makes me feel all gooey to watch...) I wouldn't want that counted as disrespectful and phased out of the game... hell if anyone wants to sky me (outside the endzone) and spike it feel very free to... in fact I insist, if I'm marking you and you catch it spike it for me... Slightly more serious I think karma (not the team... although maybe in some sort of gangland way it's an interesting idea) gets these guys in the end. Either something like that happens or all the "nice" people start to think they're dong-holsters and just avoid them...
Celebrations are fine by me, just don't spike MY disc... go spike your own... Disrespectful celebrations? well i can't think of any I've ever really seen before... Although one day I'm going to score on Axe and I'll be waggling to bejesus out of that disc when I do... And i'm sure he'll be really proud of me

My only semi serious thought about the "flies as thrower intended" discussion... hell half the time my throws don't come off (as I intended) like that in a friggin' triangle drill... But then again I can't think of very many times I would've used this rule. I'm normally flat out handblocked to the ground if there's contact while I'm throwing (foul or no foul it's hard to claim i intended to throw it straight down) not just tipped just enough to make it uncatchable.

But here's a difficult scenario (with about a 0% likelihood of me being involved in)... Disc is thrown, foul called by thrower. Flight is slightly altered from "straight to target" to "flat and offtarget but an easy layout to catch" however the catcher drops it/ground strips them self or does that awkward "hunched over while running trying to catch a disc below their knee level while having about 11 knees and arms there but not actually catching it and just kicking it to nowhere" trick that I seem to favour?

Or we could just ignore that because i'm sure it's just the same ground being covered... And really we're only talking contested fouls here aren't we? Or would the marker calling foul on them self and then the receiver dropping it cold still count as a turnover?
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DaveR
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« Reply #23 on: March 23, 2009, 04:17:27 AM »

Quote
I get fired up and emotional when playing, which can occasionally come out in close games
Especially when someone calls a travel on you....

thats irrelevant dan....i was talking about celebration, not losing your temper when the 38th travel is called on you in a gam...which i have never done and will never do
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simmo
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« Reply #24 on: March 23, 2009, 06:26:37 AM »

But on the 39th, fucking LOOK OUT
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The Brucemaster
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« Reply #25 on: March 23, 2009, 06:44:21 AM »

Quote
In soccer, players are allowed to grab the ball out of the back of the net, spike it infront of the goal keeper, then proceed to dance with all his teams mates. BUT, they cannot lift their shirt over their head, coz thats worth a yellow card (a warning).

I don't know what you're getting taught up in Northern NSW but if you're happy with a player spiking the ball in front of the GK after scoring a goal then you probably need to open up your Laws of the Game book and take note of the first cautionable offence - Unsporting Behaviour. Sounds pretty unsporting to me....

Anyway, sorry for the thread hijack but it was worth it to stir up Dan Tongue

Simmo thanks for the eloquent summary. In all the mayhem I'd forgotten what the actual rule change was!! You're hucking question is a good one though. I'd say the disc would have to go back to the thrower.
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ash_5
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« Reply #26 on: March 23, 2009, 07:56:19 AM »

Yeah id have to say Disc goes back to thrower too..
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simmo
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« Reply #27 on: March 23, 2009, 08:13:39 AM »

Yeah that's what I imagine it would be, since the turnover is a result of the foul. To be specific, the foul call, which causes everyone to stop.


Interesting to hear they're trialling a proposed change to the pick rule up in the BPL. I'm keen to hear how that works out because IMHO it's not going to be easily enforced.
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carlie
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« Reply #28 on: March 23, 2009, 06:07:39 PM »

What happens if you call contact instead of foul throw the disc and it doesn't fly right resulting in a turnover... assume that the disc does not come back...
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carlie
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« Reply #29 on: March 23, 2009, 06:13:05 PM »

I think the disrespectful celebrations is interesting because in most cases part of the game is mental.  If you can psychic out your opponent it can give you the edge, part of that could come from celebrating your score.  So, I don't necessarily agree with Dan - you might want to celebrate when the opponent is still standing there wondering how you got free from them.  But i guess there is a fine line about how you do it - waggle, swearing, speaking to your opponent directly - not cool.   I also am always surprised the level of swearing coming from the gentlemen - or not such gentlemen as the case maybe.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2009, 06:18:28 PM by carlie » Logged
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