UltiTalk.Com
Welcome to the ULTIMATE Ultimate Frisbee forum. June 18, 2019, 05:02:28 PM
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length

The ultimate forum for talking about Ultimate Frisbee. Aimed at bringing new life to the world of Ultimate Frisbee discussions, UltiTalk.Com (UT) combines both regional and international topics in one friendly place. So say hello to UT: The International Ultimate Frisbee forum.

Register your FREE UltiTalk.Com account to reveal the members-only Shout Box, Chatroom, and more!
Facebook Connect! UltiTalk is now connected to Facebook for added social networking features.
 
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Members Links Gallery Login Register  
Visit UltiTalk.Com on TwitterVisit UltiTalk.Com on Facebook

Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5   Go Down
Del.icio.us Digg FURL FaceBook Stumble Upon Reddit SlashDot Google Bookmarks Ma.gnolia MSN Live Squidoo Yahoo My Web     Bookmark  |  Print  
Author Topic: New Rules  (Read 49494 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
The Brucemaster
Jr. Member
**

Karma: +3/-3
Offline Offline

Australia Australia

Posts: 51



View Profile
« Reply #30 on: March 23, 2009, 07:32:48 PM »

With regards to the celebration the key point is obviously disrespectful. Excessive celebrations, whilst potentially annoying, are not necessarily disrespectful. For a celebration to be disrespectful I think it would have to involve some kind of direct action towards an opposition player/team. Spiking the disc in front of a player/offensive language/trash talk etc. would all be examples of that.
Logged
AlecD
Newbie
*

Karma: +3/-2
Offline Offline

Australia Australia

Posts: 35



View Profile
« Reply #31 on: March 23, 2009, 07:56:20 PM »

What happens if you call contact instead of foul throw the disc and it doesn't fly right resulting in a turnover... assume that the disc does not come back...

I'd say that as you've made the 'contact' infraction call, you can't also make a subsequent 'foul' call (for the same moment of contact). That moment in time is done and dusted (play doesn't stop, even if there's a fast count infraction, unless there is a contest), and hence the turnover from the throw after the 'contact' call stands.

Also, for infraction calls made during/after the throw:
18.1.6. If the thrower attempts a pass and a marking infraction is called during the
throwing motion or when the disc is in the air, the call has no consequences.
Logged
mattdowle
Guest
« Reply #32 on: March 23, 2009, 09:20:55 PM »

People who use excessive and disrespectful celebrations during a game in my view are playing a weaker game. But I’m glad it’s in the rules. It has never really bothered me in the past someone spiking in front of me (I usually say something calmly to them though, like…you sure that was necessary…). That style of celebration usually tells me they just got lucky. There are a couple of teams who I’m thinking of here. I will say, half the time they don’t mean to spike it in front of you – they just aren’t aware of where you are, so I always give the benefit of the doubt. Anyway, here’s my thinking which is a little off the rules subject.

Those that need to show off and enhance their celebrations are clearly not playing the strongest game they can – especially when involving the other team or doing it directly in front of a player or team. You’re essentially saying, ‘wow, how good am I – I just caught a layout grab or a disc that was thrown to my chest and it was really hard to catch. This doesn’t happen all the time so I need to show you (the other team) that I have just done something out of the ordinary and it was pretty special’.
 
Let me ask you this…when you did something wrong when you were young that you knew you were going to get in trouble for, what was worse. You parents yelling at you….or parents looking at you, turning away and not saying a word? For me it was clearly the second one – that brought the fear, why weren’t they angry? They must be really angry? Am I going to get a serve later on?

So I’m waiting for the day when I see a team do this type of celebration… Setting the scene….. Imagine someone jumping from inside the endzone whilst Gack is on defence to catch it in the air and throw it back in field (essentially a greatest), however no one is there to catch it, so they hit the ground, jump up, run into the endzone again, layout and catch it centimeters from the ground cause the wind held it up……they get up not saying a word, they walk to the front of the endzone where a couple of team mates give them a couple of low 5’s. The player looks down, realizes his shoe is not done up. He puts the disc down next to him, kneels down and ties up his shoe lace. He calmly picks up the disc as he stands up and raises his hand to single he’s ready for the next point…..He says nothing about the play  - he’s nonchalant about it all….

What does that say to the other team???

To me, that would create fear in the opposition, that would get them talking and thinking. Dude, this guy / team eats that style of play up for breakfast,…shit, what do we have coming for us next? If that wasn’t hard / special, what do they call a great goal?

P.S. Might save a comment for some of the rules mentioned here for later. I'm surprised how some people are interpreting them - take them literally and follow what is written, and it's not overly hard. The receiver dropping a perfect pass when the foul is called.... It has nothing to do with the defense - they can't make a legal call over that issue and it's totally separate to the act of fouling. They can only respectfully and calmly remind the offense of the new rule.
Logged
Eels 88
Newbie
*

Karma: +3/-1
Offline Offline

Australia Australia

Posts: 49



View Profile
« Reply #33 on: March 23, 2009, 09:37:21 PM »

So I’m waiting for the day when I see a team do this type of celebration… Setting the scene….. Imagine someone jumping from inside the endzone whilst Gack is on defence to catch it in the air and throw it back in field (essentially a greatest), however no one is there to catch it, so they hit the ground, jump up, run into the endzone again, layout and catch it centimeters from the ground cause the wind held it up……they get up not saying a word, they walk to the front of the endzone where a couple of team mates give them a couple of low 5’s. The player looks down, realizes his shoe is not done up. He puts the disc down next to him, kneels down and ties up his shoe lace. He calmly picks up the disc as he stands up and raises his hand to single he’s ready for the next point…..He says nothing about the play  - he’s nonchalant about it all….

What does that say to the other team???


If I ever saw a play like that I would be celebrating irrespective of which team the player was on!
Logged
newk
Newbie
*

Karma: +2/-1
Offline Offline

Australia Australia

Posts: 16



View Profile
« Reply #34 on: March 24, 2009, 02:33:32 AM »

Can we get past the example where some numnuts drops a disc on a fouled throw? Where does the new rule interpretation leave us on these?
1. Thrower winds up for a huck, is fouled upon release as his intended receiver cuts under.
2.Thrower winds up for a huck, is fouled upon release as his intended receiver cuts under. Receiver realises his mistake and chases it down as its a bit floaty, but gets skied.
3. Thrower throws and is fouled, disc is apparently unaffected in flight but is thrown staight to a poaching defender.
4.Thrower throws and is fouled, disc comes out all wobbly, but is thrown staight to a poaching defender.
5. Thrower hucks and is fouled, the disc goes 40m out the back of the endzone.
6.Thrower hucks and is fouled, the disc goes 30m out the back of the endzone.
7.Thrower hucks and is fouled, the disc goes 20m out the back of the endzone.......etc
8. Thrower is fouled as he throws, the disc is apparently unaffected. The throw is to a receiver that is not free, the defender is in front and blocks the throw.
9.Thrower is fouled as he throws, the disc comes out manky and wobbly. The throw is to a receiver that is not free, the defender is in front and blocks the throw.
10.Thrower is fouled as he throws, the disc hits the ground after 5 m. The receiver was not free, the defender was in front and would most likely have blocked the throw.

Generally before this rule, all the above would be returned to the thower. Simple. The toughest thing was for teams to agree on the facts of what happened at the point of the foul or violation, but once called and contested/or not, that was it.

Now at least some, depending on the circumstances, will be returned, some turnovers will stand. Now you face the real possibility of having to speculate on what might have happened (turnover or not) if something else hadn't happened (the foul), even if you dont agree that any foul happened in the first place. gonna make for some interesting onfield discussions.
Logged
Tenk283
Sr. Member
****

Karma: +11/-147
Offline Offline

Australia Australia

Posts: 473



View Profile
« Reply #35 on: March 24, 2009, 04:05:55 AM »

 Grin I've had enough of playing the devils advocate.

1. Disc comes back. Letter of the rule says the throw must be catchable. Thrower pounds it 40m past and 10m over the dude, it ain't catchable.
2. Disc comes back. Reciever didn't drop the pass.
3. Disc comes back. Again, reciever didn't drop the pass.
4. Disc comes back. Reciever didn't drop the pass.
5. Same as number 1.
6. Same as number 1.
7. Same as number 1.
8. Disc comes back. Reciever didn't drop the pass.
9. Same as 8.
10. Same as 8.

Provided the reciever in all cases try their damndest to get the disc... If they stop because of the foul call, understandable. However if they deliberately do not try to catch a disc thrown at them, well thats a bit of a grey area. What would everyone else do there?

In terms of a layout ground strip on a foul call, I would say the disc comes back... That ain't exactly an easy catch regardless of what people think the level of difficulty of the layout was. The rule says "easy catch" (or something to that effect).

Quote from: mattdowle
To me, that would create fear in the opposition, that would get them talking and thinking. Dude, this guy / team eats that style of play up for breakfast,…shit, what do we have coming for us next? If that wasn’t hard / special, what do they call a great goal?

Probably be the only thing I can claim to have in common with the great matt dowle... Unassuming celebrations rock harder than jumping round like a foul.

@Brucemaster: I haven't ref'd for a couple of years... Probably would card em for the spiking... I was trying to prove a point though before you shot me down  Wink Cheesy. My point being that "unspirited" changes with sport AND situation.

Quote from: maple
thats irrelevant dan....i was talking about celebration, not losing your temper when the 38th travel is called on you in a gam...which i have never done and will never do

I think I need to make a special "maple game disc"...

On it will be printed the travel rule. Especially the part about dragging the pivot foot  Grin .

Quote from: tanty
What about that video of the guy spiking the disc outside the endzone?


Twas hilarious and serves him right for being a goof.
Logged
thebozzman
Full Member
***

Karma: +11/-7
Offline Offline

Australia Australia

Posts: 187



View Profile WWW
« Reply #36 on: March 24, 2009, 05:13:52 AM »

Thinking about excessive/disrespectful celebrations, I can remember two examples of Spiking the disc from my side.

The first one happened at the Ultimate Stampede last year in the semi-final. It was a super close game and I had gotten away from my man running long, Goldy hucked it from halfway and I caught it in the endzone to win the game for our team. After catching it I spiked the disc. It was a big moment and the celebration was appropriate. I did however feel the need to find the owner and replace the disc I bent!

The other one was last night at Autumn Hat in Sydney.

I performed a ricockulous layout land caught a disc I should not of caught. I was pretty damn surprised that I covered that much ground with the layout, that after realising I caught it, I looked at the disc and tossed it into the air as if it was a cricket ball and I just got a big wicket. Disc landed on it's side with a thud and I felt like a complete tard about it!

Anyways, I turned this little experience into a learning  experience for my Canaries as we talked about execessive/disrespectful celebrations.

Both examples were heat of the moment and I did it without thinking.

Although I love Matt's idea about being very non-chalant about celebrations to psyche the other team out...
Logged
rjhberg
Full Member
***

Karma: +10/-2
Offline Offline

Australia Australia

Posts: 147



View Profile WWW
« Reply #37 on: March 24, 2009, 06:11:28 AM »

Quote
Letter of the rule says the throw must be catchable

The rule we are referring to says the following:

Quote
16.1.2.2.2.   If the team that called the foul or violation believes that possession has not been affected by the foul or violation, the play stands, they make up any positional disadvantage caused by the foul or violation, and restart play with a check.

There are 2 potential outcomes for the 10 scenarios listed above:

Outcome 1:
Foul occurs during the throw
Thrower: Foul
Pass is incomplete (for one of the scenarios above)
Marker: Did you think the foul actually affected the possession? If that pass had come out right would it actually have been completed?
Thrower: Um, maybe.
Marker: Are you sure?
Receiver: Hey mate, I was never going to get that
Thrower: Fair enough. Turnover.
Play restarts with a check.

Outcome 2:
Foul occurs during the throw
Thrower: Foul
Pass is incomplete (for one of the scenarios above)
Marker: Did you think the foul actually affected the possession? If that pass had come out right would it actually have been completed?
Thrower: Yes, I think it affected possession.
Marker: Are you sure?
Thrower: Yes.
Disc comes back to the thrower.
Players return to where they were when the disc was released.
Play restarts with a check (on 1 if the foul is uncontested, max 6 if it is contested)

It is entirely up to the team that called the foul to determine if the turnover should stand. The teammates of the thrower should tell them what they think should happen to help make this decision.

Rueben Berg
WFDF Ultimate Rules Committee

« Last Edit: March 24, 2009, 06:15:33 AM by rjhberg » Logged

Tenk283
Sr. Member
****

Karma: +11/-147
Offline Offline

Australia Australia

Posts: 473



View Profile
« Reply #38 on: March 24, 2009, 06:25:45 PM »

Quote
Outcome 1:
Foul occurs during the throw
Thrower: Foul
Pass is incomplete (for one of the scenarios above)
Marker: Did you think the foul actually affected the possession? If that pass had come out right would it actually have been completed?
Thrower: Um, maybe.
Marker: Are you sure?
Receiver: Hey mate, I was never going to get that
Thrower: Fair enough. Turnover.
Play restarts with a check.

If the reciever was never going to get the pass, why is it a turnover?
Logged
DaveR
Full Member
***

Karma: +6/-5
Offline Offline

Australia Australia

Posts: 199



View Profile
« Reply #39 on: March 24, 2009, 07:12:07 PM »

because it was a shit throw independant of the foul. the rule (as i understand it) just gives you the option of being more honest with whether the foul actually affected the throw or not, instead of using a cheap foul call to get away with an independantly bad throw or fluffed catch. its not that hard!
Logged
rjhberg
Full Member
***

Karma: +10/-2
Offline Offline

Australia Australia

Posts: 147



View Profile WWW
« Reply #40 on: March 24, 2009, 07:22:08 PM »

Quote
the rule (as i understand it) just gives you the option of being more honest with whether the foul actually affected the throw or not, instead of using a cheap foul call to get away with an independantly bad throw or fluffed catch. its not that hard

Correct!  Smiley
Logged

rjhberg
Full Member
***

Karma: +10/-2
Offline Offline

Australia Australia

Posts: 147



View Profile WWW
« Reply #41 on: March 24, 2009, 07:26:05 PM »

Quote
Imagine someone jumping from inside the endzone whilst Gack is on defence to catch it in the air and throw it back in field (essentially a greatest), however no one is there to catch it, so they hit the ground, jump up, run into the endzone again, layout and catch it centimeters from the ground cause the wind held it up……they get up not saying a word, they walk to the front of the endzone where a couple of team mates give them a couple of low 5’s. The player looks down, realizes his shoe is not done up. He puts the disc down next to him, kneels down and ties up his shoe lace. He calmly picks up the disc as he stands up and raises his hand to single he’s ready for the next point…..He says nothing about the play  - he’s nonchalant about it all….

I probably wouldn't celebrate after this either, mainly because it's a turnover!!!

13.1.4 - Double touch.
The throw for the greatest is considered to be just like any other pass and therefore the same thrower can't touch it unless someone else has first.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2009, 07:30:06 PM by rjhberg » Logged

mattdowle
Guest
« Reply #42 on: March 24, 2009, 08:51:35 PM »

Rueben,

Clearly you didn't interpret the non-written part about my scenario which clearly insinuates that the disc after being released from the greatest throw, skims (i.e. touches) Gack's / oppositions out-stretched hand and continues its flight into the endzone Smiley
Logged
Tenk283
Sr. Member
****

Karma: +11/-147
Offline Offline

Australia Australia

Posts: 473



View Profile
« Reply #43 on: March 25, 2009, 01:25:32 AM »

because it was a shit throw independant of the foul. the rule (as i understand it) just gives you the option of being more honest with whether the foul actually affected the throw or not, instead of using a cheap foul call to get away with an independantly bad throw or fluffed catch. its not that hard!

The old rule had the provision in it.

It was called "retracting your foul call"....

 Huh
Logged
JdR
Full Member
***

Karma: +11/-3
Offline Offline

Australia Australia

Posts: 217



View Profile
« Reply #44 on: March 25, 2009, 01:37:21 AM »

re Celebrations

It is sad that the discussion around celebrations has all been either about the negative vibes, or the 'psyching the opponent out' garbage.  You're missing the point - celebrations are fun!

And I for one have always been disappointed by the lack of pre-choreographed celebrations in Ultimate.

Ever since cheers disappeared, a lot of creativity has dropped out of the game.  But celebrations have the potential to bring some of that back.

Running around giving your team high fives and stuff, or tossing the disc around.  Yawn.  Ye gods I've seen that so many times, not just in Ultimate but everywhere.

I want to see a James' Ley and Kingsmill honey-pass to the endzone resulting in some sort of robot-dance.  Heather riding Bozza around like a bucking bull after a score, with extra YEE-HAAs.  Drule and Simmo doing some sort of Blue Brothers in James Brown's church impersonation thing.  Fakulti doing a group caterpillar after winning a final.  That sort of thing.

There should be a rule or something ....
Logged

Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5   Go Up
Del.icio.us Digg FURL FaceBook Stumble Upon Reddit SlashDot Google Bookmarks Ma.gnolia MSN Live Squidoo Yahoo My Web     Bookmark  |  Print  
 
Facebook Comments

Jump to:  






Advertise on UT!



Register your FREE UltiTalk.Com account to remove these ads!
Change language to English Change language to Brazilian Change language to Chinese-Simplified Change language to Danish Change language to Dutch Change language to English Change language to Finnish Change language to French Change language to German Change language to Greek Change language to Hebrew Change language to Hungarian Change language to Indonesian Change language to Italian Change language to Japanese Change language to Norwegian Change language to Polish Change language to Portuguese Change language to Romanian Change language to Russian Change language to Spanish Change language to Swedish Change language to Thai Change language to Turkish Change language to Ukranian Change language to Vietnamese

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2011, Simple Machines | Sitemap Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
UltiTalk.Com is the #1 forum and bulletin board for talking about, chatting about and discussing Ultimate Frisbee.
Please help spread the word to promote an international community of Ultimate Frisbee players, coaches and teachers.


Site Design By MWM Consulting, Inc. MWM Consulting, Inc.



Google last visited this page April 28, 2019, 01:36:16 AM
SimplePortal 2.1.1