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Author Topic: "Supercoach" Rankings and Weighting  (Read 10552 times)
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moroney
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« on: August 10, 2009, 07:19:54 PM »

This is similar to pissy's post regarding dreamteams. In short, there is a competition in Australia in which people create a "DreamTeam" of players. Players in the team accumulate points for good things they do, and have points deducted for bad things. My question is, how should the points be allocated? Just as an initial guess:

Completed pass - 1 Point
Completed huck - 2 Points
Layout - 2 points (plus any additional points)
Goal - 3 points
Assist - 3 points
Block - 4 points
Greatest - 6 points (plus completed pass)
Callahan - 6 points (plus block, plus goal)

Broken: -1
Skied: -1
Drop: -2
Throwaway: -2

What do you guys think? Would it provide an accurate representation of a player?
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simmo
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« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2009, 08:15:07 PM »

I'd put more weight on a contested goal (pack grab) over an uncontested goal (by yourself). Maybe an extra point.

I'm assuming the difference between a drop and a throwaway is a receiver getting a hand on the disc?

Pulls? +1 inbounds, -1 out?
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moroney
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« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2009, 08:20:21 PM »

Nice P unit.

I understand what you're saying about the contested thing, but at the same time, the idea in Ultimate is to lose your player, so you shouldn't be getting less points if you're taking a grab on your own compared to if your man is with you. However in regards to packs of three and four, for sure.

I would punish the out of bounds pull more. It's similar to a kick in with footy. If they gave points for it, they would be a gimme. So if a pull goes out -3 I'd reckon.

It would be pretty tough to be able to record all this live in a game (fantasy is hard enough as it is when you're on the booze), but it would be a lot more accurate in showing a players' impact.

Piers has a program on his Palm that does something very similar to this. Keen to get the code.
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simmo
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« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2009, 08:26:29 PM »

the idea in Ultimate is to lose your player, so you shouldn't be getting less points if you're taking a grab on your own compared to if your man is with you. However in regards to packs of three and four, for sure.
Truth. But I'm talking about zone O where goals get thrown to a completely unmarked player standing still, or 3-on-1s following a deep huck. If you have a defender following you (even if they're 10m behind) I'd say that's a contested goal.
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thebozzman
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« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2009, 09:37:18 PM »

when I first saw the name of the thread i thought this was about ranking coaches and was about to offer that I would have the worst win/loss record as a coach Smiley
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JMc
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« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2009, 10:38:43 PM »

The program Piers has is called UltiStats. Google it - been around for a while.
There's also one being worked on for iPhone (think Ultistats is Palm-only), not sure what stage of release that one's at - think it might be in beta at the moment.

Am a bit unsure about giving points to completed passes... think it opens up some tough situations... for example:
- a player that throws 10 dumps gets the same score as a player that throws 10 30m breaks
- you can stay at evens while turning over 33% of your possessions
- handlers in some zone situations will rack up super-easy stats (though less so in Australia's current favourite zone, good old pommie)

If you pick up a lucky layout Callahan (cleaning up swill), 13 points? Pretty generous... that's a block + 3 assists... Callahan's a huge play, but not sure if it's THAT huge...
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moroney
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« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2009, 12:17:54 AM »

Thanks for the tip Johnny

Quote
- a player that throws 10 dumps gets the same score as a player that throws 10 30m breaks
Yeah you have a couple of good points, we could introduce a +2 for breaks. We should if we're penalising for them.

Quote
- handlers in some zone situations will rack up super-easy stats (though less so in Australia's current favourite zone, good old pommie)
This was another consideration I thought about trying to get around. It would be a fairly vast difference between the handler and the wing stats, no matter what the zone. However as I am a popper, I decided not to dwell!!

Quote
- you can stay at evens while turning over 33% of your possessions
Johnny Mac I thought you of all people would be a fan of this!!

Quote
If you pick up a lucky layout Callahan (cleaning up swill), 13 points? Pretty generous... that's a block + 3 assists... Callahan's a huge play, but not sure if it's THAT huge...

Yeah you're right, maybe a couple of points less. 10 total? It's a massive play that shows not only on the scoreboard, but it has a dramatic effect on the dynamic of a game.
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Tiger
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« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2009, 09:02:48 AM »

While we're being ludicrously complicated, differentiate between stats taken in a man vs a zone situation.

A backwards/lateral dump is only +1 if the mark is decent.

Forwards dumps (ie to poppers) are worth nothing (for the handlers, +2 for the poppers).

Swings are worth nothing. Any throw through the cup is +2.

In ideal conditions - no wind or rain - any hammer from the right point handler to the left or vice versa is a -1 because it's the cheap way out.
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ashry
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« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2009, 09:22:52 AM »

also

mack: -1 or -2
mack to score: -3

in addition, maybe a higher value for a marker block as opposed to a receiver block/intercept?? +2 vs. +1??
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simmo
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« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2009, 10:21:54 PM »

Intercept (catch D) should be worth more than a block.

-edit- Not a point block. I mean a non-caught, slapped to the ground D.
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Frank
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« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2009, 05:52:23 AM »

You are going to end up with a scoring system that is so complicated it is impossible to use. Better off keeping it simple and functional, even if that results in skewed results. This would also mean removing very arbitrary concepts like a 'decent mark' entirely.

Most 'dreamteam' competitions suffer from some anomalies in their scoring systems, it's just neccesary to make them useable. Hence you often get players whose dreamteam points don't always align with their impact on the game, just the way it is.
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moroney
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« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2009, 07:28:11 PM »

I agree with Frank. Subjective matters such as a "decent mark", the form of D and the weather conditions would only complicate things. Keeping the points consistent would be a requirement.
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woodie13
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« Reply #12 on: August 13, 2009, 04:46:48 AM »

Zone handlers would be worth as much as Joel Bowden in the Richmond backline.

In fact I think the Richmond backline were working on the dump -swing!!!

Also you could weight the scoring average (age divided by 20) ieTiger would get his points x 16/20 whereas I would get 2.3 x my points ( Which would eaven out as Tiger would play 2.3x more points than I would)
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